In remembrance... 9-11... The Mountain Meadows Massacre

[Winston]

Originally posted by Sava
this thread is about a massacre perpetrated by Mormon barbarians.

Wrong. This thread is about you Sava, and what kind of person you are.

[Ming]

HEY... what's with the personal crap...

[Winston]

I don't think there was anything personal in what I wrote.

[Mao]

Wait...did I read wrong or did this thing happen on September 10th?

[Ming]

Originally posted by Winston
I don't think there was anything personal in what I wrote.

Wrong. This thread is about you Sava, and what kind of person you are.

Hmmm... specifically directing the post at another member... seems personal to me.

[Tuberski]

Originally posted by Mao
Wait...did I read wrong or did this thing happen on September 10th?

Yep, that's what the article says, I wonder why it was changed in the original post?

ACK!

[Gangerolf]

On Tuesday morning, September 8, 1857 the Indians attacked the emigrants, killing seven men and wounding sixteen others before they were turned back. The pioneers withstood the attacking Indians for four days, leaving the pioneers with no water and their ammunition nearly gone.

If Lee approached them on the fourth day that would be on the 11th, no?

[mrmitchell]

Mao is right. The Massacre occured on September 10 1857.

One of the reasons the Mormons were uppity was because earlier, a Mormon missionary had been murdered in Arkansas (near Van Buren, I think?).

Nonetheless, this is an important event in our nation's history, and regardless of what we think of Sava we should try to hold some decency in this discussion...

EDIT: Well, I guess there are conflicting ideas on the date. An Arkansas history book I pulled off my bookshelf said the 10th, but seeing as how records back then still weren't vigorously recorded, it could have been anywhere around that timeframe.

[Sava]

I know it may at first seem like I'm trolling because I do it a lot, but I'm not.

This is a serious thread.

I'm upset because 9-11 WTC attacks is constantly being shoved down our throats.

Yes, they were horrific attacks.

But I am upset for a few reasons.

There is a horrible irony in the mantra of "NEVER FORGET" about 9-11. Everyone says WE MUST NEVER FORGET the WTC attacks, but yet, as illustrated in this thread, people have forgotten about other important events that have occured on this date in history.

Also, I'm upset at the people who use the WTC attacks for their own personal reasons. Bush, Republicans, and the media. Case in point, today is the first NFL Sunday. And what is happening today? oooh Nick Lachey and Jessica Simpson singing America the Beautiful... and the usual moments of silence stuff. Although, I must say that America the Beautiful is better than God Bless America (which is the most offensive song ever, considering it goes against EVERYTHING america is supposed to stand for... religious freedom)

Not that we shouldn't mourn the dead, but we shouldn't place the victims of 9-11 on a pedestal ABOVE other people that have died. I mean, how is a victim of 9-11 any more important than someone else who happened to died on 9-11, but in Iowa in a drunkdriving crash or something? Where is the moment of silence for them? Or how about the moment of silence for the tens of thousands of victims of gun violence per year.

Yes, the WTC were horrible and Islamic Fundamentalism is a threat that needs to be dealt with. But keep it in perspective. 3,000 people died... Something like 100,000 people die on our highways in a year!!! 3,000 is a drop in the bucket.

[Tuberski]

From the website Sava provided:

"The fourth day was the worst of all. The wounded were actually dying of thirst. The entire caravan was weak from lack of water.

"The morning of the fifth day dawned. Our resistance was crumbling rapidly. Our ammunition was nearly gone. The stench of our unburied dead was in our nostrils. And always with us was the agony of thirst

http://asms.k12.ar.us/armem/brondel/archive/rea.htm

So it may have been September 12th as well.

ACK!

[Pekka]

Very interesting story however. And I don't think like this is trolling so much, well it kind of is but I feel it's one of those legit trolls with some merit in them.

Anyway very interesting story. But I'm not sure if I followed the last parts of the story correctly. Exactly how did this ... the pioneers were the mormons, yes? and they were in some fight with the indians, who were too much for them and they gave them chance to surrender, or more like they get to have their lives spared if they give all their stuff to them first.

And then what happened?

[Gangerolf]

then the mormons and the indians killed the pioneers

[Tuberski]

Originally posted by Pekka
Very interesting story however. And I don't think like this is trolling so much, well it kind of is but I feel it's one of those legit trolls with some merit in them.

Anyway very interesting story. But I'm not sure if I followed the last parts of the story correctly. Exactly how did this ... the pioneers were the mormons, yes? and they were in some fight with the indians, who were too much for them and they gave them chance to surrender, or more like they get to have their lives spared if they give all their stuff to them first.

And then what happened?

The pioneers were not Mormons, they were headed to California.

ACK!

[mrmitchell]

D'oh!

I've done some quick research...looks as if the massacre did occur on the 11th. A monument carved into a rock on the site in 1859 said the travelers were murdered on the 10th, apparently in error.

Sava, I think this would actually be the official website:

http://www.mtn-meadows-assoc.com/

The Mormon missionary I mentioned in my earlier post was Parley Pratt, who was indeed murdered near Van Buren, AR in 1857. Not that he was just a traveling preacher who got axed by some psycho hillbilly; he had married his murderer's wife earlier that year (in addition to his other wives).

[Pekka]

Right! That was my mistake. No wait? SO what was the beef with Mormons and pioneers then? Why did the mormons unite with the savage brutaliaits and go against the pioneers and massacre bunch of women and children?