Woot! America's Navy #1 !

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by binTravkin
This thread stinks of chauvinism and brainwashed militarists and I laugh at it like this:

Especially I liked the arguments why US is not going the militant empire path.

Does it really to take to be a non-american or apparently very highly educated person (as Shawnmmcc appears to be) to see the obvious?

I guess all reasonable people should forget this thread as US brainwashing industry seems to work so well people believe in US at least as zealously as some believe in Islam..

if someone disagrees with you, you dont argue to convince them theyre wrong, you accuse them of being brainwashed.

That says more about you than about them.

[binTravkin]

My child attended public school. They covered current affairs in social studies, and had apparently fairly vigorous discussions. Opposition to current govt policies was not at all discouraged, as far as i can tell. Frankly you dont know what youre talking about american public schools.

Well, you surely have different viewpoint on US schools than that of Shawn..

Wonder if there are more differences..

if someone disagrees with you, you dont argue to convince them theyre wrong, you accuse them of being brainwashed.

I didn't argue?
Hmm, missed some long posts, eh?
I stopped arguing after I understood it's no use of and was provided no really good argument about the contrary.
Most of the contrary arguments I read I had read before, hence my remark about official opinion.

[binTravkin]

I also grew tired of people barely reading the post and answering in an insulting overconfident manner while I was reading their entire posts and really thinking about what they say and answering by an argument not intended to humiliate the other arguer.

[binTravkin]

Since 1997? What is special about 1997? Of course life changes, thats what happens in life, its always changing. What else are you talking about?

Okay, I was intending to say the last years under Bush's administration.

Well I do not live in US and I've been hit by high gas prices.
Wonder if you aren't with the costs I've been reading of.

Yes, life changes, it's just some people make it worse for you, some better.
If you don't care if it's better or worse, why care answering at all?

[binTravkin]

And regarding censorship and agencies, I would only name one example - the official version was that Pentagon was hit by plane, although some pics from the site show some debris very unlikely belonging to plane.
The report also told about camera materials being confiscated all around the suite and the "plane's" path.
Isn't that censoring?

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by binTravkin

Well, you surely have different viewpoint on US schools than that of Shawn..

I have a child who has spent several years in the US public schools. IIUC, shawns kid isnt school age yet.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by binTravkin
And regarding censorship and agencies, I would only name one example - the official version was that Pentagon was hit by plane, although some pics from the site show some debris very unlikely belonging to plane.
The report also told about camera materials being confiscated all around the suite and the "plane's" path.
Isn't that censoring?

That material is available. No the networks dont cover it much. They also dont spend much time on UFO's, or the prophecies of Nostradomus. Or Holocaust revisionism.

Youre starting to moving into some fairly nutso territory, you know that?http://www.snopes.com/rumors/pentagon.htm

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by binTravkin

I didn't argue?
Hmm, missed some long posts, eh?
I stopped arguing after I understood it's no use of and was provided no really good argument about the contrary.
Most of the contrary arguments I read I had read before, hence my remark about official opinion.

I dont have time to read everything here. We have all had the experience that there is something that is obvious to us, and that others reject. and the arguements others use make no sense to us. One learns to accept that people simply differ in how they approach and interpret facts. To simply assume that the other person is brainwashed, is not conducive to discussion. Nor to democracy, I might add.

[Lonestar]

Originally posted by binTravkin

Because it's the official opinion of your government and you've been fed it so efficently, you don't even recognise that you don't have your own opinion anymore!

You caught me. I wake up every morning furiously masturbating to pictures of Bush, Cheny,and Rumsfeld. Also, I know that the Navy can do no wrong, and when they make a $3000 "oopsie" in my paycheck I'm somehow at fault.



Blow me.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by shawnmmcc
binTravkijn - that's one reason why we gave up television when we had our little girl, and we are considering home schooling, or a Jewish or Catholic school (in the US both are pretty good about focusing on teaching, not propoganda except some religion, and you can have your child opt out of those classes) if we can afford it.

Prior to my child attending public school, she attended Jewish day school for several years. There were many non-religious advantages - for example less obsession with standardized testing - but I dont think they were less encouraging of American patriotism than the public schools - I wouldnt have had it any other way, nor would most other parents.

Ive also never heard of anyone opting out of the Judaics curriculum - its like 40% of the program. At an Orthodox school it would be MORE. And its an integrated curriculum - you learn, say, essay writing well doing an assignment in Judaics.

[Lonestar]

Originally posted by shawnmmcc
Joseph and Lonestart - thanks for a good post. However, your posts make my point for me. Why do the US have to have carrier task forces in the Atlantic, Pacific, and Indian Oceans? Are we an empire? Are we the world's policemen. What gives us the right, besides force, to do this?

Since the end of WW2 keeping wars away from the Western Hemisphere has been a bedrock of our Foriegn and Defense policies. Like Britain in the 19th century, retaining the most capable navy in the world allows us to choose as much, or as little, war as we want.

And if we are truly being a force of good - what about Rwanda, Sudan, and the Kosovo Albanians killing off Serbs (oops, we are there aleady).

You're trying to preach to the wrong guy onRwanda and Sudan. And to me the Kosovo Campaign was always more fishy than the Iraq war (which I would discribe as "a whole bunch of *real* good reasons to go, and we decided pull a bunch out of our ass when we made our case to the public")

So we really aren't being the world's policeman, we are protecting our interests. If our interests require force to protect, and extend around the world - can you say "Empire." It walks like a duck, quack likes a duck, and craps like a duck. It's a duck.

But see, what's the defination of Empire? We aren't running around annexing other countries, and the only place that you can argue seriously is turning into an American Protectorate through our use of force is Iraq.

Are we an Empire? Well, I suppose in the strictest sense of the word, yes, we are. We have a history of stripping away land ownership from Spain, Mexico, and assorted Indian Tribes. We formed a country out of over a dozen pseudo-independant states.

Are we an Empire because of Modern overseas adventurism? Negative. Like I said, I don't see any annexation going on.

Now is the US de facto Empire a force for good? At times, yes. I had wondered abot Aceh. I had noticed certain reports from NGO's at the beginning, and caught the games played with our military relief. I had not known about the fact the Civil Authorities were being overriden by the military, I did not know Indoensia was still that bad.

But ask the Panamanians - who helped put Noreiga in power? Ask the Chileans, the South Koreans all through the fifties until the revolution in the nineties - or the Iranians and Iraqis over our actions in the fifties. Now I will grant that our meddling was not as bad as the Soviets (and Che will disagree), but - they're gone.

Our carrier task forces are instruments of policy, and of force. We use them to impose our policies, and national self-interest, on other countries. We DO NOT need 12 task forces to protect the US and invade Afghanistan, but we do need them to project our policy and power throughout the world.

See, like I said earlier in my post. Having such a capable Navy allows us to take as much or as little of War as we want. And unless we have a major paradigm shift in Foriegn policy (such as complete isolationism) we will need to retain the ability to project power downrange in large amounts.

That is where we differ, and I will grant anyone serving that they at least are willing to put their money where their mouth is, so to speak - and I also repeat, any of them that are gung-ho about Iraq could redeploy as Corpman, the Navy has a big push for that. Just a thought.

My job is much cooler.

[Mr. Harley]

LOM (sorry I should have specified Catholic schools for the opting out - but we are considering both types of schools) - I am in one of those states where we don't teach evolution, we teach gradual change over time to keep the Southern Baptist Convention Happy. Where the High Schools have been taken to court multiple times over having a Gay-Straight Alliance club - they are periodically banned, while Bible study clubs are not - and where we just had to have a Baptist minister kicked out via lawsuit from the lunch room in a HS south of here (for proslytizing).

And where my wife felt it necessary to carefully avoid the fact of her being Jewish, and where a Southern Baptist supervisor, in the US Government, felt very comfortable telling me that he doesn't date that kind of person (reference Jews). And yes, there are laws against it and they are not enforced in states like this unless you somehow get lucky and get a Yankee for a supervisor - and even then only one who has the guts to buck the system.

I have lived in another state, West Virginia, where fundamentalist bible classes were taught in public schools, and in the middle school you had to send a note to keep you kids out of the class. Remember, I raised a 7, 9, and 14 year old that I inherited (for five years), so to speak - their dad was deceased, a careless gunsmith - and the history, english, and composition courses they were taught were poor to nonexistant. I also, during my mother's terminal illness, did some of the PTA work for my younger sisters. There are ALOT of lousy schools out there - and yes I had seriously thought about leaving Kentucky, and now having my job contracted out has made it no longer a choice.

The cable channels spend MORE time on "UFO's, or the prophecies of Nostradomus. Or Holocaust revisionism. " then they do dealing with many of the substantive issues here, especially the issues of hardware that poses a real threat to American ships. Or for that matter on what happens to the surviving children of KIA - they don't even get to finish their school year unless it is within the six month "vacate government housing" rules - or the situation in VA hospitals. Note, they do deal with those - but there is more on UFO's than the VA Hospitals, and more on Nostradomus than the kids of the KIA.

And on whether there is a propoganda element to our history books - I don't know is POM is in HS yet, but if she is do her schools teach about the Sand River Massacre, or the island of Batangas - you can place both in their proper conflicts, I assume? Every country has their myths, their spin, the things they "neglect" to teach. The US may be better than some, but definitely is worse than others.

[Mr. Harley]

Lonestar - Empire does not consist of simply annexing territory. For example, I used the "World Policeman" example. I am defining "empire" as the coercive use of force on other countries that have not initiated war with you. If you want to define it as some middle ground between the two, go ahead. But no matter what you call it, it will have more in common with the old British Empire then let's say Finland.

If you are not all gung-ho over Iraq-2, then your having a way cooler job - which FYI I agree with you - is great. But if you are gung-ho over the Iraq intervention? Then if you do what Patroklos did - then you will have my respect. If you are just as pro-invasion, but prefer to opt-out of the nastiest parts of the conflict simple because you job is "cooler" - as I've said in other posts, I will let people draw their own conclusions...

[lord of the mark]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by shawnmmcc

And where my wife felt it necessary to carefully avoid the fact of her being Jewish, and where a Southern Baptist supervisor, in the US Government, felt very comfortable telling me that he doesn't date that kind of person (reference Jews). And yes, there are laws against it and they are not enforced in states like this unless you somehow get lucky and get a Yankee for a supervisor - and even then only one who has the guts to buck the system.

I have no problem with a non-Jew saying they dont date Jews. How else would i preserve my right to say, not date non-Jews (if i were single)?

[q0The cable channels spend MORE time on "UFO's, or the prophecies of Nostradomus. Or Holocaust revisionism. " then they do dealing with many of the substantive issues here, especially the issues of hardware that poses a real threat to American ships. Or for that matter on what happens to the surviving children of KIA - they don't even get to finish their school year unless it is within the six month "vacate government housing" rules - or the situation in VA hospitals. Note, they do deal with those - but there is more on UFO's than the VA Hospitals, and more on Nostradomus than the kids of the KIA.[/b]

I was responding to Bin travkins 9/11 conspiracy theorizing, which was the basis for his claim that the cable channels are govt propaganda.


Look, popular newsmedia spend too little time on detailed policy questions for my taste. That is out of the quest for ratings, not out of bias I think.

And on whether there is a propoganda element to our history books - I don't know is POM is in HS yet, but if she is do her schools teach about the Sand River Massacre, or the island of Batangas - you can place both in their proper conflicts, I assume? Every country has their myths, their spin, the things they "neglect" to teach. The US may be better than some, but definitely is worse than others.

POTM is in middle school. Again, they dont teach every detail ( i presume Batangas is in Phillipines? Im quite sure they discussed the annexation of the Phillipines, and the controversy about it - they certainly discussed McCarthyism. They really do have a hard time fitting everything in, and give far too much homework.

[Lonestar]

Originally posted by shawnmmcc
Lonestar - Empire does not consist of simply annexing territory. For example, I used the "World Policeman" example. I am defining "empire" as the coercive use of force on other countries that have not initiated war with you. If you want to define it as some middle ground between the two, go ahead. But no matter what you call it, it will have more in common with the old British Empire then let's say Finland.

Possibly. Or at least a lower suicide rate.

If you are not all gung-ho over Iraq-2, then your having a way cooler job - which FYI I agree with you - is great. But if you are gung-ho over the Iraq intervention? Then if you do what Patroklos did - then you will have my respect.

Patroklos is a Supply officer, man. Yes, he's on a VBSS team but his main job on the ship is making sure the accounts all add up.

If you are just as pro-invasion, but prefer to opt-out of the nastiest parts of the conflict simple because you job is "cooler" - as I've said in other posts, I will let people draw their own conclusions...

You mean when I didn't volunter to go ashore and help with the Tsunami relief? How about when we (by "we" I mean myself and immediate coworkers) were instrumental in finding the dhow we knew had 3 tons of Hashish on it? And these guys weren't harmless dope peddlers either, they were Bad Men(tm).

And finally...there are only 4 CTMs that have my NEC in the Navy, so they wouldn't let me cross-rate if I wanted to.

Also, the guv'ment doesn't like spending money on getting you a security clearence then booting you down to a job where you don't need it.