Slave reparations (UK C4 program)

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by reds4ever
Che,

So am I to pay up?

As a member of the society who benefited from their labor, yes, that's the idea. Of course, as tax payers, the decedents of slaves would also be paying.

Why me and not the decendents of the African rulers who sold their compatriots?

What happened to them? They got all their wealth stolen during colonialism.

"Africa may not have become like Europe" has got to be the understatement of the year. The place has been a dump for 1500 years.

You don't know squat about African history then, reds. I suggest you look up Mansa Musa.

[lord of the mark]

I dont have a problem with the notion of compensation IN PRINCIPLE. For good capitalist, common law reasons. And for the same reasons, have no trouble with paying my share, though the descendant of post-1880 immigrants. And would have no trouble with african americans paying their share as well (an oft raised pseudodifficulty)

If a corporation commited a tort against someone, its shareholders need to make good for that damage. If i buy a share in that company AFTER the tort, I still share (as stockholder) in the payment of damages. If i am simultaneously a shareholder, and plaintiff against the same corp, it still is considered correct for me to collect damages (even though a small portion is from myself) the same holds true when a govt entity commits a tort, to the extent that the govt entity allows suits against itself. None of this is as problematic as the anti-compensation folks make out. also, the only issue is the damage caused, NOT benefit gained. If i run over you in my car, i have to pay you, even if i gained no benefit.


The real problems are practical, assuming payment is to be made to individuals. At 140 years, its very hard to identify correct recipients, given intermarriage, immigrations of blacks from outside the US, etc. In the case of German reparations to Jews, this was simplified by making payments ONLY to actual survivors, who had suffered directly in europe from 1939 to 1945. If you werent there, you got nothing, even if your family was killed. Look at how many people have discovered indian blood since certain tribes became wealthy from casinos. Expect something similar.


Guev says just add to payment for the poor. But of course not all descendants of slaves are poor, and plenty of non-descendants of slaves are poor. and if payment to poor is reparations, then some would say past payments of reparations have discharged the debt. Guev is assuming there is some "just" level of payments for the poor, that we are below it, and that it could be increased based on reparations. I suggest that this would create greater difficulties than figuring out whose a descendant of slaves. It would also add to the conflation of the issue of poverty with that of race, which has been of the tragedies of America for decades - folks see income distribution (falsely) through the lens of race, and they see race too exclusively through the lens of poverty.


Heres my suggestion. 1. Acknowledge the debt in principle. 2. Establish a fund, out of which disbursements would be made to things like memorializing slavery and the slave trade, supporting african american culture, researching diseases that principally strike african americans, etc (while trying to be careful that this isnt used as an excuse to cut existing programs in these areas) This would get around the problems of identification. I also dont think the amounts need to be that large - many african americans simply want acknowldgement, I think.

[Kuciwalker]

If a corporation commited a tort against someone, its shareholders need to make good for that damage. If i buy a share in that company AFTER the tort, I still share (as stockholder) in the payment of damages.

Isn't it the point of a corporation that, as a shareholder, you aren't liable for more than your investment?

[chequita guevara]

I think Jim Crow has much more to do with the state of modern Black America than slavery. It would also be far easier to identify the vicitims of Jim Crow than of slavery.

[reds4ever]

Che,

You quote ONE man as a reason to why Africa MIGHT have been like Europe? Hell, Africa even had the odd great country over the last couple of millenia, however the continent in general was, and is, a dump.

[C0ckney]

reds, just out of interest what were people on the program suggesting we do?

and yeah africa would have been better off without slavery, but even without 'european' slavery and colonialism east africa would still have suffered just as much because of the arabs installed there for over 1000 years.

[reds4ever]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara

Originally posted by reds4ever
Che,

So am I to pay up?

As a member of the society who benefited from their labor, yes, that's the idea. Of course, as tax payers, the decedents of slaves would also be paying.

Why me and not the decendents of the African rulers who sold their compatriots?

What happened to them? They got all their wealth stolen during colonialism.

I don't see that makes any difference? Just because they lost the money doesn't make them less responsible?

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by reds4ever
"Africa may not have become like Europe" has got to be the understatement of the year. The place has been a dump for 1500 years.

You and Che may want to contribute to these discussions:

http://www.apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=136137

http://www.apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=136511

Some interesting arguments there, and some info that could fill you in, Reds.

Also, if you wish to participate in the threads, remember that they aren't in the OT, and the people there aren't used to our frank exchange of views

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by reds4ever
Che,

You quote ONE man . . .

That was off the top of my head. I'm sure those more versed in African history can give you more detail.

[Q Classic]

Against reparations. My relatives and ancestors had nothing to do with the Western slave trade; I don't see why I, today, should bear the costs.

I don't mind increasing assistance to the poor, the disadvantaged; I don't mind helping out my fellow man, when I can afford it. But tying financial aid like that to racial politics and historical misfortunes galls me.

If you call it reparations, I'm not paying for it, and I refuse to support it. If you call it financial assistance, aid, or what not, and don't restrict it just on the basis of skin color, count me in.

[reds4ever]

Originally posted by C0ckney
reds, just out of interest what were people on the program suggesting we do?

and yeah africa would have been better off without slavery, but even without 'european' slavery and colonialism east africa would still have suffered just as much because of the arabs installed there for over 1000 years.

The guy, Dr Robert Beckworth (or summat like that) was asking for £5 Trillion (yes Trillion) in reparations he seemed to want statues in comemoration(sp), African aid (like they don't get enough) and bursaries to educate blacks. I'm sure PA would suggest he could put the money towards airfare for those who'd like to get back to the African paradise that they have been denied.

Whatever the may think of the entire issue, the good Dr put a VERY one-sided case, even doing interviews and voicing over the reply to the questions he'd asked!

[Spiffor]

And for the record I'm opposed to such reparations. IMO, the aid should be granted to those who need help, and who suffer from a wrong themselves (I don't know how it is in the UK, but in France, many blacks live in impoverished communities and have their chances stifled by a prevalent racism - this is typically a problem that deserves to be tackled, and it is barely related to slavery).

OTOH, I'm all for a public acknowledgement that slavery was a crime against humanity, and that it completely destroyed many African societies. I'm all for our societies to be aware of the horrors our countries wrought; I'm all against some heirs profiteering from the guilt.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by reds4ever
I don't see that makes any difference? Just because they lost the money doesn't make them less responsible?

They also lost their countries and became slaves themselves when the Europeans arrived. You are terribly ignorant when it comes to Africa, so stop trying to use it to make a point. You'd do better to stick with Britain.

[C0ckney]

Originally posted by reds4ever


The guy, Dr Robert Beckworth (or summat like that) was asking for £5 Trillion (yes Trillion) in reparations he seemed to want statues in comemoration(sp), African aid (like they don't get enough) and bursaries to educate blacks. I'm sure PA would suggest he could put the money towards airfare for those who'd like to get back to the African paradise that they have been denied.

Whatever the may think of the entire issue, the good Dr put a VERY one-sided case, even doing interviews and voicing over the reply to the questions he'd asked!

i'll bet dr robert beckworth is a white guy :/

anyway i think we know how far his idea will get

[reds4ever]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


That was off the top of my head. I'm sure those more versed in African history can give you more detail.

So you pull me up for not knowing "squat about African history" but it turns out you're just as ignorant!