Slave reparations (UK C4 program)

[Dauphin]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Let's try another tack. Say your grandad stole something, and then your father inheritied it, and then you. Along comes a decendent of the person who originally owned it. They would be able to take you to court to get it back. This is what's happening with a lot of artwork looted by the Nazis. Getting recompense for unpaid labor is a similar principle.

Can I apply to have all descendents of slaves who would otherwise not be in the country deported?

[reds4ever]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Let's try another tack. Say your grandad stole something, and then your father inheritied it, and then you. Along comes a decendent of the person who originally owned it. They would be able to take you to court to get it back. This is what's happening with a lot of artwork looted by the Nazis. Getting recompense for unpaid labor is a similar principle.

Thats my point, theres no proof my decendents did anything and theres not a great deal of proof to indicate which people should be given my money.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
Yeah, well, if we're going that route, the descendents of slaves themselves are undoubtedly better off than they would have been.

Tha assumes that Africa would have been the pit of dispair it became after having tens of millions, maybe even 100 million people carted away between the 16th and 19th Centuries, whole kingdoms destroyed, societies completely disrupted.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Dauphin
Can I apply to have all descendents of slaves who would otherwise not be in the country deported?

Join the BNP and have a go.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by reds4ever
Thats my point, theres no proof my decendents did anything and theres not a great deal of proof to indicate which people should be given my money.

Well, suppose you bought stolen goods. Under most legal systems, you'd have to return it to the original owner, even though you committed no crime.

[Dauphin]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


Join the BNP and have a go.

I think both ideas are totally ridiculous and undesirable. But way to go and miss my point.

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara

maybe even 100 million

[Wezil]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


Well, suppose you bought stolen goods. Under most legal systems, you'd have to return it to the original owner, even though you committed no crime.

Off on a tangent for a bit....

Does that apply to property seized by the Cuban gov after the revolution? Do the rightful owners (mainly American) get their stuff back after Castro finally dies?

[reds4ever]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


Tha assumes that Africa would have been the pit of dispair it became after having tens of millions, maybe even 100 million people carted away between the 16th and 19th Centuries, whole kingdoms destroyed, societies completely disrupted.

A safe assumption IMHO. The whole idea that Africa had all these utopian kingdoms that the white man destroyed is a myth.

If reparations are to be paid shouldn't the decendants of the African and Arab slave masters have to pay up too?

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Wezil
Off on a tangent for a bit....

Does that apply to property seized by the Cuban gov after the revolution? Do the rightful owners (mainly American) get their stuff back after Castro finally dies?

Under capitalism, yes. However, it is worth noting that the Cuban government did pay recompense at the time those industries were siezed. The owners just refused to be paid, since it was below market value (but at the value those companies had told the government for tax purposes).

[Wezil]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Under capitalism, yes. However, it is worth noting that the Cuban government did pay recompense at the time those industries were siezed. The owners just refused to be paid, since it was below market value (but at the value those companies had told the government for tax purposes).

I was curious how one of your political persuasion would answer that.

Thanx for playing along.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by reds4ever
A safe assumption IMHO. The whole idea that Africa had all these utopian kingdoms that the white man destroyed is a myth.

I don't think anyone ever said they were utopian. However, as noted in the colonialism thread, they were a far sight better off then what came after. Slavery and colonialism destroyed Africa. Africa may not have become like Europe, but it probably wouldn't have been the basket case it is today.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Wezil
I was curious how one of your political persuasion would answer that.

Thanx for playing along.

No problem. Look, every civilization that has ever existed has relied on the unpaid labor of others, and includes outright theft in many cases. The decendents of slaves are little different from those decended from serfs, indentured servents, or early industrial workers. I do not believe that there should be any recompense for slavery. I am just trying to present the case for it in a logical and reasonable fashion, so that people don't simply dismiss it with arguments about lazy, greedy Blacks.

That said, I think former colonies certainly have a legal case against their former owners, and American Blacks have a case for recompense for Jim Crow. The question is whether or not it can be handled intelligently and in a way that redresses the evils of the past which linger on today. The point is to try and come up with programs that overcome the legacy of racism, so that minorities aren't disprortionately excluded from our societies.

[Proteus_MST]

Hm, dunno.

In the case of things "stolen", like property or land stolen (for example the land stolen from the indians), I´d think that it could and should also be given back to the descendants, unless of course, the thing happened in the distant past (I think it would be O.K. to give it back to children, grandchildren or grand-grand-children, but that would IMHO be the limit to give reparations for stolen property or land )
But in case of forced labor IMHO it´s too abstract. How do you measure the value of work? After all some slave owners used their slaves for great profit, while others made few or no profit at all with them (for example because the slaves where just used to keep the house clean).
There´s also the question, who should pay the reparations. The state profited only indirect from slavery (by taxes), but those who profited most were those people who bought or sold the slaves (which AFAIK wasn´t the state itself).
(Which is another difference to most of the cases where property or land was confiscated/stolen on a large scale, for example in case of Germany (Jews), USA (Indians) or USSR (Churches, Landowners))

And by using taxpayers money for the reparations, they would be paid by the descendants of those people who could afford slaves as well as descendants from those people who never ever had something to do with slavery (but often themselves were some kind of slave to industrie barons and had to work for low pay under harsh conditions)

[reds4ever]

Che,

So am I to pay up? Why me and not the decendents of the African rulers who sold their compatriots?

"Africa may not have become like Europe" has got to be the understatement of the year. The place has been a dump for 1500 years.