Power nazis in Bulgaria

[Atahualpa]

I don't want to go in lenghts here and I guess you and I know both other sides of the argumentation so we would just waste words on that matter.

If you think you don't, please here just for you:
Electricity needs can be covered with various forms and as the modern Austria shows that we have managed to do so, without a nuclear plant. Some forms are more accepted among the population than others. Politicians need to have a feeling for that and if sometimes they don't, then the people can decide directly on the matter.
It's a weasel strategy to push your own agenda by putting people to decide on completed tasks. I don't necessarily want to underestimate bad intent here though, they may not have known as well.

[Az]

like what? "buying" ( which is outsourcing the damage), "Hydro" ( which is probably used to the limit already), and fossil fuels. All the rest is probably an insignificant fraction of the power demand.

[Atahualpa]

Okay so I did a little web search:

Hydro power
Here is an example of a hydro river-crossing plant: http://externe.jrc.es/Austria+Hydro.htm

The power plant Greifenstein located in Lower Austia, Austria, is the eighth run-of-river plant on the river Danube. Having an installed capacity of 293 MW and a yearly mean energy generation of 1,720 GWh, Greifenstein is the second largest run-of-river plant. The construction period lasted from 1981 to 1985 and the construction costs summed about 8.1 billion ATS (about 600 million ECU). The power plant is managed by Österreichische Donaukraftwerke AG (DONAUKRAFT) or VERBUND respectively.

There is a wikipedia entry (german): http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donaukraftwerk

nsgesamt erzeugen die Kraftwerke an der Donau jährlich 13200 GWh Strom und damit rund 20% der öffentlichen Elektrizitätsgewinnung in Österreich.

(They produce 13,200 GWh of power each year (20% of the public electricity productions in Austria) - don't ask me what that should mean, the company is only public in as much as it is a stock-corporation)

Mentioned on a windpark site (about the general situation): http://www.tauernwind.com/windenergi...gie_oest_e.htm

70% of Austria´s electricity is produced by renewables. This seems astounding but when we take a closer look and realise that water power accounts for this, the situation is not as rosy as it seems. Hydroelectric power plants change and destroy the landscape tremendously.

[Atahualpa]

Wind power
An example of a windpark is the Tauern wind park. On their page it says they produce about 52 GWh (anually) with 13 propellers. It's the highest (altitude) one in Europe.
I've seen an enourmous amount of wind parks in southern spain, while they are a big sight in the country, I think it has its own fascination and the land can be used for farming.

They have a nice table of the development of wind power in Europe (numbers are MWh, I guess - not taken anually):

Installed Capacity in Europe, most important countries:

	1995	1996	1997	1998	1999	2000	2001	2002	2003
Germany	1132	1545	2080	2874	4443	6113	8754	11994	14609
Spain	133	249	512	834	1225	2235	3337	4825	6202
Denmark	637	857	1116	1450	1761	2300	2417	2889	3110
Italy	33	71	100	180	283	427	697	788	904
Netherlands	249	299	325	363	411	446	493	693	912
UK	200	270	320	334	353	406	474	552	649
Sweden	69	105	117	150	215	231	290	345	399
Greece	28	29	29	39	82	189	272	297	375
Ireland	7	11	51	63	73	118	125	137	186
Portugal	9	20	38	60	60	100	125	195	299
Austria		3	20	30	42	77	95	140	415
France	3	10	10	19	22	66	78	148	239
Finland	6	8	12	17	38	38	39	43	51
Rest Europe		29	31	51	68	76	124	210	266
Total sum	2506	3506	4761	6464	9076	12822	17320	23308	28706

[Atahualpa]

and the rest of the world:

Installed Capacity, other countries:

	1995	1996	1997	1998	1999	2000	2001	2002	2003
USA	1591	1582	1611	2141	2465	2495		4685	6374
India	576	820	940	1022	1062	1138	1507	1702	2110
China	44	79	146	200	261	316	400	468	568
Canada	21	22	26	83	125	137		236	317
Japan			18	40	68	135	274	414	686
Egypt			5	5	35	68
Marocco			0	0	0	54
Costa Rica			20	26	46	51
New Zealand			4	5	35	35
Australia			11	17	17	31	73	105	198
Brazil			3	17	25	20
Argentina			9	12	13	14
Iran			11	11	11	11
Rest Others	2	2	15	15	25	26		310	335
Total sum	2234	2505	2819	3594	4188	4521

[Atahualpa]

Solar power

I found a nice application of solar power, where the top of a football stadium was equipped with solar cells to feed into the heating net for a towns district: http://www.managenergy.net/products/R261.htm

With the construction of Austria's largest solar plant (1407 m2) at the Arnold Schwarzenegger Stadium the pilot project of feeding solar energy directly into an urban district heating net was realised. Further a distinct sign of environmental concern of the township of Graz was set. This solar plant is Europe's Premiere for solar district heating. The plant is operated and financed by a Third-Party-Financing Model. This pilot project is supported by the township of Graz, the Steirische Wirtschaftsförderung and the Kommunalkredit Austria. The plant went in operation in June 2002 and will deliver about 600 MWh solar energy in the district heating net. Comparing the CO2 Emissions, which issue by using an oil fired boiler with a total efficiency of 70 %, this means a saving of about 250 tons CO2 a year.

Exactly the type of solar power applications that we could see more in the future!

A solar plant in Austria: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loser_%28mountain%29

The largest solar plant of the Alps is located on the southern slope of the loser at an elevation of 1600 meters. The pure air, the usual absence of fog, and, in winter, reflection of sunlight from snow, create good conditions for obtaining electricity from sunlight in the mountains. The Loser plant was built from 1988 to 1989 and consists of 598 solar modules covering a total surface area of 263 square meters. The module's inclination of 60 degrees allows for a stable delivery of electricity throughout the year. Three generators (from the USA, Japan and Germany) produce about 30 kilowatts under optimal conditions, which enter the electrical network through a power inverter.

But why cover free space when we could build it atop of existing buildings?

[Atahualpa]

fixed the formatting

[Bereta_Eder]

Solar and wind power is ideal for places like the greek islands or other places with lots of sun and wind.

[VetLegion]

Nuclear power

Ecologists

There is no contradiction between the two.

[chequita guevara]

Safe nukes
Real world nukes
nuke waste

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Datajack Franit
How is polluting the water and the air by burning fossil fuels better than a modern nuclear power plant?

The damage goes away a lot sooner than radiactive contamination.

[Atahualpa]

Originally posted by VetLegion
Nuclear power

Ecologists

There is no contradiction between the two.

That's right nuclear power itself is not that much of a problem (except when it ends in a supergau of course). But the toxic waste that comes with it is.

[Az]

Ata,

263 square meters.

about 30 kilowatts under optimal conditions

I am sorry, but that's nothing. simply nothing.

[Atahualpa]

Yeah it's because solar power doesn't sound cool, but you don't want to understand where and how to use it.
Read the case study about the football stadium and see a successful application in a bigger environment.
Solar power is useful when you don't think in big factories, but in a decentralized model. One big plant somewhere will need much space and not generate much energy, but lots of small plants in urban areas (where space is already there) can signifcantly contribute to the total power output. Think in P2P nets.

In smaller environments solar power is useful as well and the same company that operates the "Loser" (edit: it's a name) plant, has installed and runs a smaller part for one of those "restaurants" in the mountains (on 1572m) that operate on 2kw.

[Az]

solar power is good for a very small nieche:

-Powering outdoor devices that consume little power, like parking meters, etc.
-Heating water - This is used extensively in Israel.
-powering calculators.