Iran Resumes Uranium Conversion Efforts - 20 minutes ago

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by molly bloom



Will the same hold true for Israel and Pakistan, India and China ?


Pakistan's secret services were with the Taleban when they entered Kabul and drove the Mujahedeen out, for instance.

Pakistan has been accused by India of harbouring Muslim terrorists and sponsoring terror attacks on Indian soil. Pakistan has gone to war with India in the past. Pakistan is ruled by a military dictator.

Clearly, Pakistan is dangerous too.


On the other hand, Iran guarantees political representation to its Christian and Jewish and Zoroastrian minorities, gives the franchise to women, and has elections.


Bomb- not bomb- you decide !

Molly, are you aware that Pakistan has elections as well?

Are you aware that Musharaf reversed Paki support for the Taleban - and has been twice the subject of attempted assasinations by pro-AQ terrorists?

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by General Ludd



It'd be a better idea for the one with the weapons to initiate discussion of disarmament.

I think Israel did. Do you want me to find a cite? Do you not believe that Israel would be ready to talk about this with Iran, anywhere, anytime?

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
Molly, are you aware that Pakistan has elections as well?

Indeed. In fact, a couple of years ago Musharraf held a referendum on his military dictatorship...uhh..."alternative democracy", and received 98% support...

[lord of the mark]

Israel has in fact offered to hold talks toward a nuclear free middle east as part of the road map peace process.

Unfortunately Iran has not agreed to participate in said peace process.

[General Ludd]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


I think Israel did. Do you want me to find a cite? Do you not believe that Israel would be ready to talk about this with Iran, anywhere, anytime?

Yes, I'm skeptical that Israel would ever give up it's nuclear weapons.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse


Indeed. In fact, a couple of years ago Musharraf held a referendum on his military dictatorship...uhh..."alternative democracy", and received 98% support...

I was referring to the parliamentary elections, in which all major parties participated. They were followed by negotiations to assemble a majority government.

Of course Perv as President is not (yet) subject to elections. But then neither are the mullahs who run the Guardian Council and Expediency Council in Iran.

Of course Perv only came to power 8 years ago, 8 years of turbulence in Pakistan. He says he intends to restore full democracy.

The Iranian mullahs, OTOH, came to power 26 years ago, and not only have not promised to give up their undemocratic power, but they exclude from their "democratic elections" any candidates who call for them to do so.

[BeBMan]

Originally posted by VetLegion
Az, your argument is not very convincing, but we have to adjust for you being under threat (of potential Iran nuclear weapons), so you are not objective. I have yet to see someone explain why Israel should have nukes and Iran shoudn't, who should be the one to decide about it, and why have Europeans gotten so nervous about it.

Technically - Iran is member of the NPT, Israel not. From my perspective, I prefer a world with less nuclear powers over one with more of them. And if countries get now nukes despite being in the NPT the entire thing is worthless, and we will get nuclear arms races everywhere.

Sure, one can argue that it is unfair anyway that the established powers are allowed to have nukes while the others are not - but unfair or not IMO the world is safer without dozens of countries armed with nukes.

And of course Europe is concerned because Iran is closer then let's say NK.....same reason why for example Japan is more concerned about NK....

[SlowwHand]

Israel won't. Not as long as the Iran's and Syria's exist as they currently do.
Do you REALLY blame them?

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by General Ludd



Yes, I'm skeptical that Israel would ever give up it's nuclear weapons.

They have offered negotiations towards a nuclear free middle east, as part of the larger peace process.

[Ramo]

The Iranian mullahs, OTOH, came to power 26 years ago, and not only have not promised to give up their undemocratic power, but they exclude from their "democratic elections" any candidates who call for them to do so.

You realize that Musharraf disqualified from the "democratic" parliamentary elections the leaders of the two major (secular) parties?

Of course Perv only came to power 8 years ago, 8 years of turbulence in Pakistan. He says he intends to restore full democracy.

Yes, of course. Just like Mubarak, right?
Musharraf was supposed to step down as head of the army, what, a year ago? Last time I checked he's still a General.

Do you not believe that Israel would be ready to talk about this with Iran, anywhere, anytime?

I'd heard that there would be no Israeli discussions about disarmament until there's a comprehensive peace with its neighbors. And you're not going to see that until there's a final settlement with the Pals (as Abdullah Saud suggested - involving a total withdrawal from the West Bank and Gaza - rejected of course). I guess it always comes down to that in the ME.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Ramo


"You realize that Musharraf disqualified from the "democratic" parliamentary elections the leaders of the two major (secular) parties?"

For corruption. Their parties still participated. Contrast with Iran.



"
Yes, of course. Just like Mubarak, right?
Musharraf was supposed to step down as head of the army, what, a year ago? Last time I checked he's still a General."

The contrast is with Iran, where they dont even promise change. You will note this thread is about Iranian nukes, which is why Paki was mentioned. Egypt doesnt have nukes.


"I'd heard that there would be no Israeli discussions about disarmament until there's a comprehensive peace with its neighbors. "

you heard wrong. Israel says the discussions can start as part of the road map process. Of course they are unlikely to agree to disarm until ALL states in the region commit to a treaty with them to do that, and its hard for that to happen when some major states in the region dont recognize them. at least one state, Iran, calls for their destruction. That would certainly get in the way of negotiations toward mutual disarmament.

" And you're not going to see that until there's a final settlement with the Pals (as Abdullah Saud suggested - involving a total withdrawal from the West Bank and Gaza - rejected of course)."

If the Saudis want to advance their view of the final boundary, they should join the negotiations. Israel has its views, other folks have theirs - thats why negotiations are necessary.

[lord of the mark]

From Memri:


Special Dispatch Series - No. 897
April 22, 2005 No.897

Ayatollah Nouri-Hamedani: ‘Fight the Jews and Vanquish Them so as to Hasten the Coming of the Hidden Imam’

The official Iranian news agency Fars, which is close to the conservative circles in Iran, recently published a statement by Ayatollah Hossein Nouri-Hamedani, one of the Iranian regime's leading religious authorities, in which he advocates fighting the Jews in order to prepare the ground and to hasten the advent of the Hidden Imam, the Messiah according to Shiite belief.

It should be noted that the Fars news agency took the report off its web site several hours after its publication, and other Iranian media outlets close to the conservatives refrained from citing it.

The following is the text of Ayatollah Nouri-Hamedani's censored statements, which appeared in identical language on two internet sites: Peykeiran, a site close to the anti-regime communist left; and Asylum-Norway, an internet site belonging to an organization that supports Iranian refugees in Norway: [1]

Prior to the Advent of the Hidden Imam, Arrogance and Colonialism Rule the World

"Fars news agency: Ayatollah Nouri-Hamedani, discussing [Shi'ite] religious texts, said: 'One should fight the Jews and vanquish them so that the conditions for the advent of the Hidden Imam be met.' According to the Fars news agency's report, Ayatollah Nouri-Hamedani met with members of the Mahdaviyat Studies Institute. [2] He praised the institute's work and demanded that the religious seminaries in Qom also do more to research religious texts and hadith concerning the Hidden Imam...

"Nouri-Hamedani said that the texts concerning the end of days are rife with allusions and hidden meanings. He asked the researchers to devote their efforts to elucidating these texts. He noted: 'In the texts it is told that the Hidden Imam will remove the yoke of humiliation from mankind's neck. Therefore it is clear that prior to the advent of the Hidden Imam, Arrogance [a common epithet for Western powers, especially the U.S.A.] and colonialism rule the world.'

The Jews Have Hoarded All the Wealth in One Place, and All the World are Their Slaves

"According to this religious authority, 'at present the Jews' policies threaten us. One should explain in the clearest terms the danger the Jews pose to the [Iranian] people and to the Muslims. Ever since Islam's appearance, the group that expressed fierce opposition to Islam – and still acts in this fashion – were the Jews. They were involved in the Khaybar, Uhud, and Ahzab wars.' [3] He added: 'Already from the beginning the Jews wanted to hoard the world's goods in [their] greed and voracity. They always worked in important professions and now they have hoarded all of the wealth in one place. And all of the world, especially America and Europe, are their slaves.'"

Crazy Ideas Such as Secularism, Liberalism, and Humanism are Part of Our Enemies' Plans to Sow Disunity

In another statement from last year, Ayatollah Nouri-Hamedani, on the occasion of his visit to the cities of Khoramshahr and Shalamche, said: "World Arrogance [i.e., the U.S. and the Western powers] is creating a trinity of evil: heresy, divisiveness, and Zionism, in order to weaken the [Iranian] people's spirit and to create division and disagreement with respect to our regime. [Therefore] all of the senior officials and the public must be on their guard more than ever…

"The spreading of prostitution and evil things, the creation of a mentality of inferiority, and the propagation of crazy ideas such as secularism, liberalism, and humanism are [all] part of our enemies' plans to sow disunity in [our] society...

"The revelation of the culture of Jihad and martyrdom in the country [Iran] struck world Arrogance [i.e., the U.S. and the Western powers] with dread… The existence of such a spirit among our youth led to world Arrogance's not daring to infringe on our borders... History shows that every people that lost the culture of Jihad and martyrdom were brought down." [4]


And some folks think its no big deal if this regime gets nukes.

[SlowwHand]

Well, I sure as **** do.

[lord of the mark]

Khamenei Message to Hajj Pilgrims: The Zionist Octopus and U.S. Imperialism Harbor Plans for the Entire Islamic World

"… At present, the Islamic world is faced with an all-out siege, both on the economic and the technological fronts, as well as with a propaganda offensive, and most recently with military occupation. The occupation of Palestine and the holy city of Quds [Jerusalem] have culminated in the occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan.

"The Zionist octopus – along with the vicious and despicable U. S. imperialism – now harbors plans for the entire region of the Middle East, as well as North Africa and the entire Islamic world. They have created the general awakening, which has breathed new life into the Islamic nation [ Ummah ], the target of their vengeance and spite.

"The U.S. and the Western imperialists have finally concluded that Muslim countries and nations, especially those of the Middle East, form the core of this awakening and resistance to their plans for global domination. They foresee that if they fail to control or suppress this Islamic awakening in the next few years with political and economic measures, through propaganda, and as a last resort through military aggression, all their plans for absolute global hegemony and control of the most vital oil and gas resources, which constitute the sole powerhouse of their industrial machinery and [the sole] cause of their material edge over the rest of humanity, will come to nothing.

"If that happens, the big Western and Zionist capitalists, who are the real backstage players in all imperialist governments, will fall from the height of their power and their domination over the nations.

"Imperialist arrogance has deployed all its capabilities to this end. It has launched this fateful war, using political pressure on one front, threats of economic sanctions on another, and employing propaganda tactics in one place and bombs, missiles, tanks, and troops in other places, such as Iraq and Afghanistan, just as it did before in Palestine and Quds.

"The most important tool of these predatory savages is the deceptive mask of hypocrisy that they wear. They equip and dispatch their assassination squads to murder innocent people and talk of waging war on terrorism. They openly support the bloodthirsty terrorist regime that has usurped Palestine, and label as terrorists the defenders of Palestine, who strive with their backs to the wall.

"They manufacture, supply, and use nuclear, chemical, and biological weapons of mass destruction. They have perpetrated such horrors as Hiroshima and Halabja, and on the Iranian warfront during the imposed war, while they profess to be against the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction.

"They themselves are behind the dirty drug-trade mafia, but claim to be fighting the narcotics trade. They make a display of supporting science and the globalization of science, and yet obstruct the development of science and technology in the Islamic world, considering the emergence of nuclear technology for peaceful purposes in Islamic countries a moral sin.

"They talk of freedom and the rights of minorities while depriving Muslim girls of the right to education for the sin of wearing the Islamic scarf. They speak glibly about the freedom of expression and belief, while counting every expression of opinion about Zionism as a crime.

"They ban the publication of many outstanding Islamic works and forbid in the U.S. even the publication of the documents retrieved from the U.S. spy den in Tehran. They rant about human rights while setting up scores of torture centers – such as the ones at Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib – or maintain a conniving silence about such incredible outrages.

"They talk about respect for all religions, while extending their support to such renegades as Salman Rushdie, who has been sentenced to capital punishment, and the BBC, which broadcasts sacrilegious statements against Islamic sanctities.

"However, as a consequence of the insolent and foolishly reckless conduct of the U.S. and British rulers, this mask of deception and hypocrisy has been fractured. With their own hands, they have stuffed the hearts of Muslim nations and youth with hatred for the arrogant imperialists. Should free elections be held today in any Muslim country, the people would definitely vote against the wishes of the U.S. and Britain."

[Ramo]

For corruption. Their parties still participated. Contrast with Iran.

Yes, after you disqualify the leaders of the parties, certainly thier parties would do well in the elections. And in Iran, at least the Parliament was able to do something. They don't have a dictatorship. Incidentally, Musharraf's Parliamentary gov't exists only because he's in a coalition with the fundies against the secular parties.

The contrast is with Iran, where they dont even promise change.

What use is a promise about giving up power when it's proven that your promises about giving up power are worthless (again, see as head of army)? And Iran is at least not a dictatorship.

Going back to nukes, do you honestly believe that Khamenei is ready to start a nuclear war with Israel? Rhetoric aside, you have to absolutely insane to do that. And I don't think that characterizes him (unlike, as I hinted, Kim Jung Il). Again, there is some danger with rogue elements, but not all that different from Pakistan.

you heard wrong. Israel says the discussions can start as part of the road map process. Of course they are unlikely to agree to disarm until ALL states in the region commit to a treaty with them to do that, and its hard for that to happen when some major states in the region dont recognize them. at least one state, Iran, calls for their destruction. That would certainly get in the way of negotiations toward mutual disarmament.

Source? I just did some googling:

Arab states want Israel to give up its nuclear capability as part of comprehensive peace talks. Israel, however, insists that the peace process must be completed before it considers relinquishing its nuclear capability. IAEA Director-General Dr Mohamed ElBaradei suggests that the two should be pursued “together in tandem” and that all parties should pursue:

http://www.basicint.org/nuclear/NPT/2005rc/brief11.htm

If the Saudis want to advance their view of the final boundary, they should join the negotiations. Israel has its views, other folks have theirs - thats why negotiations are necessary.

The point was that Abdullah offered to broker a comprehensive peace if Israel abandoned the occupied territories.