Mandatory Aug 6 Hiroshima thread

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Agathon
Because the very same action that ended the war "if it did" was that which revealed to everyone that we now had the power to destroy human civilization finally and irrevocably with a weapon of such indiscriminate power that not only incinerated and poisoned hundreds of thousands at the time, but continued to do so for decades, affecting people who weren't even born at the time.

1) That still has nothing to do with celebrating 9/11, as it did neither of those things.

2) Isn't that a good thing? Much better than not realizing it...

The end of the Second World War is nothing compared to that realization. That's why celebrating Hiroshima is inappropriate. It's probably the most depressing day in human history. By all means celebrate VJ and VE days. That is entirely appropriate.

1) I'd say that the actual death of tens of millions isn't nothing compared to the realization of the capability to inflict hundreds of millions of deaths.

2) Once again, isn't that realization a good thing? God forbid we not have figured that out...

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker


1) That still has nothing to do with celebrating 9/11, as it did neither of those things.

2) Isn't that a good thing? Much better than not realizing it...

The end of the Second World War is nothing compared to that realization. That's why celebrating Hiroshima is inappropriate. It's probably the most depressing day in human history. By all means celebrate VJ and VE days. That is entirely appropriate.

1) I'd say that the actual death of tens of millions isn't nothing compared to the realization of the capability to inflict hundreds of millions of deaths.

2) Once again, isn't that realization a good thing? God forbid we not have figured that out...

Why are you so immature? Do you play video games too much? Your argument is sophistical. Once it is possible to destroy humanity, there is no going back. It's the fact that we could do it, not specifically people's awareness of this fact.

Grow up.

[Patroklos]

summary shows none of that, but rather a belligerant, crude, offensive, and almost hateful summary.

As it was meant to, except for the crude and hateful parts which are not attributes applicable to that statement.

Nore does any of that make it not true.

Barbarism? I'll grant that there are instances of barbarism before and during the war, but all of them were perpetrated by the Japanese Military, not the Japanese people themselves.

A military is nothing more than a cross section of the population is is recruited from. That includes the bad and the good. In this instance the IJA was made up of conscripts so even more so. If the IJA proved itself to be a brutal and aggressive force (amoungst other things) it is because those attributes were present in the people and culture as a whole.

So I suppose the German people should feel no responsibilty for the Holocaust?

Oh yeah, grammar nazis

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Agathon
Why are you so immature? Do you play video games too much? Your argument is sophistical.

Yours, OTOH, is brilliant...

Once it is possible to destroy humanity, there is no going back. It's the fact that we could do it, not specifically people's awareness of this fact.

Hiroshima didn't make us capable of doing it.

Grow up.

[General Ludd]

Originally posted by Q Cubed
Your summary shows none of that, but rather a belligerant, crude, offensive, and almost hateful summary. It's almost as bad as how Japan whitewashes its sins.

Almost hateful? It's completely hateful.


If 'almost' has any place in there at all, it's before the word 'summary'.

[Q Classic]

Originally posted by Patroklos
As it was meant to, except for the crude and hateful parts which are not attributes applicable to that statement.

Okay. Maybe I'll grant you that it's not crude. But it is hateful, unless you happen to be some bigot. Besides, I'm still not sure whether you intended that pun or not.

Bigots
Proper spelling, which isn't necessarily something a grammar nazi does

Nore does any of that make it not true.

How about this summary:
"In a display of outright and brutal military superiority, the American people, largely Caucasian at the time, decided to put the whole world on alert as to their global supremacist ambitions by annihialting two whole cities, mostly civilians, with a weapon of destruction that is unmatched in scale, savagery, and lingering effects."

It's "true", but it's also quite a twisted viewpoint--not unlike yours.

A military is nothing more than a cross section of the population is is recruited from. That includes the bad and the good.

And the American military is supposed to be the elite, is it not? Way to go, Abu Ghraib.

In this instance the IJA was made up of conscripts so even more so. If the IJA proved itself to be a brutal and aggressive force (amoungst other things) it is because those attributes were present in the people and culture as a whole.

You're talking to someone whose family was involved in the Korean Resistance from 1905-1935. I know quite well what the Japanese military was capable of, being colonial aggressors and all--a colonization that was tacitly condoned by the American president, Theodore Roosevelt.

So I suppose the German people should feel no responsibilty for the Holocaust?

Hey, genius--you didn't even read my post, did you? Where in there did you miss the whole, "I have grave issues with the way Japan whitewashes its history" bit? I guess I didn't make that point clear.

Do you know why I'm not as upset with Germany? Because they've made it a point of their education to underscore just how evil Hitler's regime was. Japan, on the other hand, tries to whitewash their textbooks every few years.

That's why when you read Joi Ito's op-ed, which I linked to, it's somewhat disheartening.

But of course, since you don't read my posts in their entirety, I figure you missed the sub-tull nuances there.

Reading Comprehension

===

Make no mistake--I'm in the school of thought that thinks the dropping of the first atomic bomb was right. Personally, there are two reasons--one is the nationalistic, knee-jerk "bright bomb day" reaction, which still exists, even if it's been lessened as of late; but there's the whole military strategy bit, which I also accept.

All I'm taking issue with is your "summary", which is rather hateful. You may not actually have any hate when you wrote it, but when it's read, it comes across as spiteful, arrogant, and bigoted.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Patroklos
Patently false statemet.

The secret mediation between the Soviets and Japan failed not long after Potsdam, even with the Soviets trying to string Japan along.

What part of hope don't you understand?

The fact that he Japanese hoped something would happen is no indication that there was any reality to their illusion? There wasn't any secret mediation. The Japanese asked the Soviets to help mediate a negotiated peace, the Soviets said nothing, and never got back to them about it. In the absence of a negative answer from the USSR, the Japanese deluded themselves into believing there was a possibility.

[Patroklos]

How is it hateful to call the WWII Japanese brutal and wantonly (sp ) aggressive?

Bigot eh? If you say so, but you do get the prize for using the the most unconstructive use of multiple insults for no purpose today

[Dis]

Let me finish this thread off with some interesting reading. At least I found them interesting.

The first is about the training of the bomber teams that lead the Hiroshima and Nagasaki missions. They took place at an army corp base on the Nevada/Utah border.

The second is about the mission itself

You may have to put in your zip code to see these newspaper stories. They used to not ask for any information... But it is free.

http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2005/Aug-06-Sat-2005/news/26902506.html

http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2005/Aug-07-Sun-2005/news/27011440.html

I would like to finish this thread with this quote by Tibbets. The commander of the bomber teams. And pilot of the Enola Gay.

"Let it be understood that I feel a sense of shame for the whole human race, which through all history has accepted the shedding of human blood as a means of settling disputes between nations. And I feel a special sense of indignation at those who condemn the use of a nuclear explosive while having no lament for the fire-bombing attacks in the same war on the city of Tokyo, where thousands of civilians were literally burned to death in a single night, and on Dresden, a great German city that was all but leveled in a dreadful attack. Only a fool speaks of humane warfare. É It has the smell of hypocrisy when self-proclaimed humanitarians draw a distinction between an acceptable and an intolerable brand of human cruelty."

[Frankychan]

This thread just shows how I think we've failed for compassion of the victims on both sides.

Ok, I apologize that I might seem fanatical in this thread, but what I would like is for people to just acknowledge that dying by atomic bombs probably ranks as one of the worst ways a human can die.

What the plaque should read is "Because of the barbarism and wonton aggression of the Japanese people, we were forced to incinerate them by the tens of thounsands for the good of man kind."

This pretty much sums up why I'm so pissed off. It's the whole "lets cook 'em" mentality. Yeah, it might be a good thing that the bombs were dropped and countless lives were probably saved, but can we at least see the damage and victims left behind the bombs dropped?

But again, I'll state this: I don't support what the IJA did either. I would very much like to see the victims of the Japanese wartime policies compensated as well.

The whole fact that there's a lot less compassion for human life in general is disturbing...

(and yes, I believe you can be a harda** and still feel compassion for your fellow man)

[Kuciwalker]

This pretty much sums up why I'm so pissed off. It's the whole "lets cook 'em" mentality. Yeah, it might be a good thing that the bombs were dropped and countless lives were probably saved, but can we at least see the damage and victims left behind the bombs dropped?

We can also see the damage and victims left behind if the bombs hadn't been dropped.

[Patroklos]

Though it was many years ago, when I was last in Wilmington N.C. they were giving below decks tours of the USS North Carolina. Do they only give the above deck tour of the Wisconsin because they have hopes of one day taking it out of mothballs?

Sure we can, but that is just one facet of a chain of events. It is understandable that you focus on that one, but it is not a comprehensive understanding of the event.

Over all, what I stated is the end result.

[General Ludd]

Originally posted by Patroklos
How is it hateful to call the WWII Japanese brutal and wantonly (sp ) aggressive?

Is it hateful or bigoted to say that you where "forced" to incinerate the japanese people for the good of mankind?


Hmm, incinerate.... to what other WW2 atrocity could that term be applied.

[Kuciwalker]

Godwin-PWNED

[Q Classic]

Originally posted by General Ludd Hmm, incinerate.... to what other WW2 atrocity could that term be applied.

The Dresden firebombings?

/me snatches thread from the jaws of Godwinization in an athletic, two-point move.