No surprise - Organic farms better for countryside.

[child of Thor]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4740609.stm

I'm not surprised at all by this - and it should be taken seriously by the agri-agencies in this(and other) country. We need less chemicals on our food - its better for everything evidently.

[General Ludd]

It's rather depressing that this even needs to be said...

[child of Thor]

Originally posted by General Ludd
It's rather depressing that this even needs to be said...

indeed

Still to some, promoting the organic movement must mean your a 'green' at heart, and thus a communist and thus anti republican and all things apple pie and stars and spangled banners(whats wrong with Gm? chemicals are our(petro-chemical suppliers) friends etc etc)

Of course the sensible ones know different, sadly we are not a majority yet i suspect(but getting there).

[Sikander]

I find many of the health claims made on behalf of "organic" foods to be dubious, and sometimes laughable. But I have never doubted that the reduction / elimination of fertilizers / insecticides / herbicides is anything but beneficial for ecosystems from the farm itself all the way to the ocean.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

It's depressing the lack of actual agricultural experience this board has.

[child of Thor]

Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe
It's depressing the lack of actual agricultural experience this board has.

my father is a respected scientist who has worked for many government+private companies over the years of his carear(about 40 years).

my grandfather has always provided the family with non-pesticide induced food from his garden, and has also worked within the goverments(uk) agricultural setup since+during the second world war. He writes/researches for friends of the Earth now in his retirement.

But i agree if your talking about large scale agricultural production levels, where things get much more complicated.
Still in PNG my father ensured that under his 20year stewardship of the COPRA+CCRI agencies, that no ariel crop spraying was allowed. He introduced using parasites to control pest species(rhino beetle for example), and it was incredibly succesfull - the petro-chemical companies were not very happy though, and fought against the policy where ever it could.

In my view they are parrallel to the big oil companies in the world, the way they do business and what they care about at the end of the day(money above all else).

So i have little sympathy for them - i choose the better future world over what they would promote.

But apart from hearing about stuff, my own agri experience has been just stuff i've grown for myself using various techniques, like organic,companion plants,prey species(hedgehogs are good to combat slugs for example) etc.
If we could get the big industries to just try to adopt some other methods than mass spraying of chemicals then it would be of benifit to everyones and the planets health.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by child of Thor


my father is a respected scientist who has worked for many government+private companies over the years of his carear(about 40 years).

my grandfather has always provided the family with non-pesticide induced food from his garden, and has also worked within the goverments(uk) agricultural setup since+during the second world war. He writes/researches for friends of the Earth now in his retirement.

But i agree if your talking about large scale agricultural production levels, where things get much more complicated.
Still in PNG my father ensured that under his 20year stewardship of the COPRA+CCRI agencies, that no ariel crop spraying was allowed. He introduced using parasites to control pest species(rhino beetle for example), and it was incredibly succesfull - the petro-chemical companies were not very happy though, and fought against the policy where ever it could.

In my view they are parrallel to the big oil companies in the world, the way they do business and what they care about at the end of the day(money above all else).

So i have little sympathy for them - i choose the better future world over what they would promote.

But apart from hearing about stuff, my own agri experience has been just stuff i've grown for myself using various techniques, like organic,companion plants,prey species(hedgehogs are good to combat slugs for example) etc.
If we could get the big industries to just try to adopt some other methods than mass spraying of chemicals then it would be of benifit to everyones and the planets health.

I grew up on a smallish farm. (100 acres with 150 acres leased) Dad was a PhD biologist and taught at universities his entire career 30 + years while being a full time farmer with the aid of his two sons.

In essence everyone wants their food stuffs to be pristine and the environement to be completely unharmed. In practice the rub is in order to do so, it absolutely requires so much extra labor and resources it is for themost part impractical to do on any meaningful scale and still turn a profit in order to remain viable. Even for the smallish farmer like we were ( as margins for the farmer are usually razor thin) the only means to survive is ensure maximum productivity or find a means to have crops with larger margins. Soemtimes one might stumble into a new cash crop. For example the rage a few years ago was planting sunflowers, however for the most part staples like corn, oats, hay were a recipe for bankruptcy.

Now were the market place decided pro-organic and would pay the premium to allow enough labor to fill those needs that would beone thing, but I seriously doubt that radical change will ever happen in the marketplace. I could be wrong but I doubt it. OTOH were the governement to come in and via regulation force organic practices the first thing that would happen is the smallish farmer (already an endangered speicies) would be the first to go as they have no reserves of cash to afford to absorb extra costs.

In order to have a fair accounting of the practices it would have been appropriate for the BBC article to at least comment on the manpower requirements per acre farmed organically vs. conventionally. Likewise a commentary on overall productivity of the land comparing the practices would have been in order. Otherwise the article is a whole lot of "yeah so what else is new, No big surprise". "Raaah Raaah organic farming."

[chequita guevara]

Cuba uses organic farming for all their farming. It's not impossible to do on a large scale, just not as profitable.

The interesting thing about organics though, is longer shelf life and better taste. I know people who buy organic milk simply because it lasts longer, and they don't buy anything else organic.

What's interesting is that organics is growing quite a bit. I see more and more organic products, and more organic produce all the time.

I think this is definately something that should be supported.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


I think this is definately something that should be supported.

I would agree that supporting it through the market is appropriate, as it would allow premium priced crops for very smallish farmers to raise.

I would say a carte blanche edict however from a governemental agency would be the death nell of the small farmer.

[child of Thor]

@ Ogie - these are often concerns of large scale farming, and pests are a problem, especialy when your crop is not a native speicies in the first place(i'm thinking of the general disaster trying to grow rice in png, it is possible - but with such a high amount of pesticide to make it almost unedible).

Still we have what i feel is a general ground swell here in the uk to organic, but you're right in that it does mean a complete makeover of the whole agricultural method we have been using over the last 30 years or so.

What i mean is we may need to move away from the mass-mechanised and huge scale(particularily in the USA and other larger nations) of our agricultural model. And it will be difficult for sure. What we probably need for 'Organic' to really succeed, is for many more smaller farms to get supported by the government. Local produce going to local shops/markets etc. A move away from the centralisation and enlargement we have seen for many years.
We have many examples here in the uk of such smaller farms setting up and making money, when aiming for the 'organic' market.
At the end of the day many people do care about the food they eat and what effect it has on thier kids+ the enviroment etc.

As a consumer we can make our mark in this too, and as Che points out - supporting it is a positive move

Still they had a tv program on the other night looking at how Supermarkets fit into this scheme, and even though many have quite a good selection of organic foods; it was found these supermarkets also have ridiculos standards of aesthetics when it comes to what they will accept from the farmer. To the extent that on average about 30% of various crops(like apples/potatoes) get binned for not conforming to the correct 'look'

This is also an area where we as the consumer can help encourage the Supermarket to do the right thing(give us funny shaped natural foods).

[:) Smiley]

From my experience organic food costs about twice what non-organic food does, on average.

However, if one buys based on what is in season, the premium is lower and can be anywhere from 50% to the same price.

Additionally there are varieties that can be found organic that are rare in the nonorganic market.

[chequita guevara]

I got some organic Chiquita bananas the other day. They were about 75% more in price.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by child of Thor
@ Ogie - these are often concerns of large scale farming, and pests are a problem, especialy when your crop is not a native speicies in the first place(i'm thinking of the general disaster trying to grow rice in png, it is possible - but with such a high amount of pesticide to make it almost unedible).

For the most part I would agree but much depends on what threshold one uses to describe large scale farming.

In our case 250 acres was far from large scale and yet it did require large scale techniques of fertilization, herbicide and pesticide treatments to allow but 3 people to manage the land.

In the case of produce growers utilizing 20 acres or less organics maybe a viable approach as labor costs likely could be offset by increased margins depending on produce yields (much of which depends as you indicated on aesthetic properties, of which organics seem especially susceptible to pest damages).

[Az]

less pesticides
biological control
GM

That's about it for me.

[child of Thor]

costs in the uk are getting better(at the consumer end). roughly 60% of my shopping(not just groceries) is organic(and/or fairtrade/recycled/eco friendly) - and it makes my weekly shopping bill about £10 more expensive. No big deal in my book.