No surprise - Organic farms better for countryside.

[DanS]

The fact is that some pesticides are worse than others. Many of the most heavily used pesticides break down in the environment very quickly, and aren't very toxic in any event, so I would hesitate to recommend against their use for some ephemeral "reduced pesticide use" goal. On the other hand, there are some pesticides that I would wish that we use less of, no matter the magnitude of "less."

Besides, in an aisle of organic food at the local Fresh Fields supermarket, I guess that about half of the claims to be better are BS. As I was growing up, my family was a member of an organic food co-op. A lot of the food was very good and healthful, if expensive. A lot of the food gained nothing by being organic, however.

My old Amish neighbors grow organic-lite and it's incredibly wasteful. I wouldn't recommend that anybody operate a farm like this. Over the last several years, crop yields for many crops on conventional farms have been going through the roof (besides this Summer's drought), so I bet that organic foods will become increasingly more expensive compared to conventionally-grown foods as time goes on.

[child of Thor]

Originally posted by DanS
edit...
A lot of the food was very good and healthful, if expensive. A lot of the food gained nothing by being organic, however.

well 'nothing' is good - if it includes chemicals that can be harmfull to small children.
One of the test they did on the TV program i mentioned was to go to a variety of british supermarkets and buy a bag of groceries in each. they then took them into a lab and tested the food for chemical residues etc.

They found that in fruit+vegetables that you might use mashed up to give to your baby, the loose 'fresh' produce had toxicity levels upto 300% the allowed dosages that you can have in manufactured babyfoods(cow+gate for example). These levels all fell under the permited agri level for chemicals in adult food though.

Still it just high lights that we cant 'chemical' our way out of some difficult decisions. In a developed world, where sperm rates are falling, cancers and allergies are risieng etc we should look at our food with a much more critical eye. And from a personal point of view if i didn't eat organic fruit+veg anyway - i might have to consider eating bottled baby food over the stuff you buy loose in the supermarket. That 300% less pesticde/chemical residue would be important to me

[DanS]

I would need to see the study to which you refer.

Still it just high lights that we cant 'chemical' our way out of some difficult decisions.

This is just a slogan. Again, some of the most heavily-used chemicals are pretty harmless. There's not a problem using them. There's even not a problem in increasing the use of these pesticides.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by DanS


My old Amish neighbors grow organic-lite and it's incredibly wasteful. I wouldn't recommend that anybody operate a farm like this. Over the last several years, crop yields for many crops on conventional farms have been going through the roof (besides this Summer's drought), so I bet that organic foods will become increasingly more expensive compared to conventionally-grown foods as time goes on.

Point being it is somewhat crop dependant. Large amounts of labor are the norm to typically harvest produce crops as automated harvesting machinery is not usually accessable or viable. OTOH that role is usually relegated to cheap migrant (oft times illegal immigrant) labor to get throught he crunch times. Weed & Pest control (or lack therof ) impact on yields is a double whammy when coupled with year long increased staffings to produce organics.

Regarding the generic foodstuffs of cron, wheat, oats, barley etc. I see no reasonable means to ever suggest organic be a viable alternative to conventional farming techniques.

Having never raised rice I can not comment.

[DanS]

I agree with your post, insofar as my experience extends. I note that the Amish grow everything organically, including the basic crops that you mention. Also, I note that if you have an organic co-op or supermarket like Fresh Fields, you have to have everything organic, including the flour. So even though it doesn't make sense to grow wheat organically, organic flour is what will be stocked.

[Jon Miller]

nonorganic farms have the production artificially over valued by the government (who pays them to not grow corn, or to destroy corn, etc)

so it isn't as simple as what produces the most

JM

[chequita guevara]

Most cereals are meant for non-human, animal consumption. If we stopped factory farming animals, and let them graze on grass instead, industrial agricultre wouldn't be needed. If Maverick Ranches are anything to go by, this would only increase the flavor beef and pork, though doubling the price.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by DanS
I agree with your post, so far as my experience extends. I note that the Amish grow everything organically, including the basic crops that you mention. Also, I note that if you have an organic co-op or supermarket like Fresh Fields, you have to have everything organic, including the flour. So even though it doesn't make sense to grow wheat organically, organic flour is what will be stocked.

Yet even the so-called organic techniques lead to environmental disasters.

As an example Mennonite farmes where I grew up were well known for carting off as much friggin chicken manure as possible to help feritilize corn crops. The net effect was the over nitrated soils and manure run off poisoned the local streams resulting in fish kills and soe mpretty substantial cases of dysentary down stream. (I in fact caught it myself at age 16 from being a complete moron and drinking sparkling clean creek water. Bad Idea )

[chequita guevara]

Dumbass.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Most cereals are meant for non-human, animal consumption. If we stopped factory farming animals, and let them graze on grass instead, industrial agricultre wouldn't be needed. If Maverick Ranches are anything to go by, this would only increase the flavor beef and pork, though doubling the price.

Depends on what they are fed. Free range animals tend to be leaner meats. Fattier meats typically result from factory or stable kept animals and as a consequence tend to be tenderer cuts of meat.

So if the ideal is lean good for you but twice teh cost meats OK.

OTOH if the ideal is yummy tasting "who gives a fig if it has some fat in it, its cheap and great tasting" then you go with what you got.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Dumbass.

Aah to be young and dumb as opposed to old and dumb.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe
Depends on what they are fed. Free range animals tend to be leaner meats. Fattier meats typically result from factory or stable kept animals and as a consequence tend to be tenderer cuts of meat.

Which is why the adjective I used was flavorful.

Still dumb after all these years, eh?

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


Which is why the adjective I used was flavorful.

You did?

Still dumb after all these years, eh?

Yep and its better to be truthful about it ehh?

[child of Thor]

Originally posted by DanS
I would need to see the study to which you refer.

This is just a slogan. Again, some of the most heavily-used chemicals are pretty harmless. There's not a problem using them. There's even not a problem in increasing the use of these pesticides.

i was using a slogan not so much for political reasons, but more that it describes an 'attitude' that is very common in developing countries

found it atlast http://www.channel4.com/news/microsi...ets/index.html

It was interesting viewing.

I still maintain that the petro-chemical industry is to organic methods(or the green enviromental movement etc), what the oil industry is to the clean fuel industry.
They can opperate(and do) just as ruthlessly, with little regaurd to the damage their actions can cause. Money talks and everything else walks.

So part of my pro organic/green stance is a direct result of their practises globaly.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe


You did?



Yep and its better to be truthful about it ehh?