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  • Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui


    As che has said, there is speculation that Frist didn't bring his name to the full Senate because he wasn't sure he'd pass. I'm not actually sure if there was any filibuster taking place, though if they had the vote on the floor (and there was a chance he'd pass), then it would have prevented him from taking that office.

    However, even if it had. They WOULD BE doing their job. The filibuster is a procedural tool that is given to the Senate in the doing of their job. Using that tool would be a part of doing their job. As history has proven up and down votes in front of the full Senate is not required for the Senate to "do its job". One can legitimately argue that the Senate blocking extremists, in any way it can, is actually more doing its job than rubber stamping nominees through.
    And I still say indeed they would not have done their job until such time as the matter at hand they are voting on is the candidate proper and not procedural issues. Anything short of that is not proper advise/consent.

    As for the matter of whether filibuster is anything more than delay, I find it interesting your comments in another thread...

    I should have guessed that wikipedia was the place to go .

    To wit I remind you of an earlier posting of mine

    Filibuster -

    In a legislature or other decision making body, a filibuster is an attempt to obstruct a particular decision from being taken by using up the time available, typically through an extremely long speech.

    The term first came into use in the United States Senate, where senate rules permit a senator, or a series of senators, to speak for as long as they wish and on any topic they choose. The term comes from the early 17th century, where Buccaneers were known in England as filibusters. This term had evolved from the Spanish filibustero which had come from the French word flibustier, which again evolved from the Dutch vrybuiter (freebooter).

    A similar form of parliamentary obstruction practiced in the United States and other countries is called "slow walking". It specifically refers to the extremely slow speed with which legislators walk to the podium to cast their ballots. For example, in South Korea this tactic is known as a "cow walk" . In general it refers to the intentional delay of the normal business of the legislature [1].
    "Just puttin on the foil" - Jeff Hanson

    “In a democracy, I realize you don’t need to talk to the top leader to know how the country feels. When I go to a dictatorship, I only have to talk to one person and that’s the dictator, because he speaks for all the people.” - Jimmy Carter

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      • The filibuster is a procedural tool
        It is a procedural loophole. I would prefer it if you didn't make bueracrats/government employees/elected officials believe operating loopholes equates to doing thier jobs, the DMV already runs on a power trip as it is.
        "The DPRK is still in a state of war with the U.S. It's called a black out." - Che explaining why orbital nightime pictures of NK show few lights. Seriously.

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        • To wit I remind you of an earlier posting of mine


          .... and?

          It says nothing about the filibuster not being a de facto legislative veto... in fact it alludes to it:

          "filibuster is an attempt to obstruct a particular decision from being taken by using up the time available"

          If you obstruct a decision from being taken by using up all the time available, you've killed the decision. Ie, it ceases to be. It is no more.
          “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
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          • squirm buddy because it explicitly says:

            'In general it refers to the intentional delay of the normal business of the legislature [1].

            Can't be any clearer than that. You may wish to read more into than that but that simply is your desire to read more into the definition.

            In fact what you aqttempt to lay down as a definition of filibuster is an effect of it, but not its true definition, which clearly is a delay to avoid making a decision.
            "Just puttin on the foil" - Jeff Hanson

            “In a democracy, I realize you don’t need to talk to the top leader to know how the country feels. When I go to a dictatorship, I only have to talk to one person and that’s the dictator, because he speaks for all the people.” - Jimmy Carter

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            • Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe
              squirm buddy because it explicitly says:

              'In general it refers to the intentional delay of the normal business of the legislature [1].

              Can't be any clearer than that. You may wish to read more into than that but that simply is your desire to read more into the definition.

              In fact what you aqttempt to lay down as a definition of filibuster is an effect of it, but not its true definition, which clearly is a delay to avoid making a decision.


              Jesus Christ almighty, you are desperate aren't you?

              [q=wikipedia]A similar form of parliamentary obstruction practiced in the United States and other countries is called "slow walking". It specifically refers to the extremely slow speed with which legislators walk to the podium to cast their ballots. For example, in South Korea this tactic is known as a "cow walk" . In general it refers to the intentional delay of the normal business of the legislature [1].[/q]

              Slow walking, while 'similar', is obviously not the same thing as a filibuster! Slow walking... eventually you have to get there and vote (it's just the leaders taking a long time bringing it up to the table). Filibuster, can obstruct forever, by not having the votes for cloture ever.

              Another nugget from wiki:

              [q=wikipedia]In 1946 Southern Democrats blocked a vote on a bill proposed by Dennis Chavez of New Mexico (S. 101) that would have created a permanent Fair Employment Practices Committee (FEPC) to prevent discrimination in the work place. The filibuster lasted weeks, and Senator Chavez was forced to remove the bill from consideration after a failed cloture vote even though he had enough votes to pass the bill.[/q]

              Just a "delaying tactic" huh?
              Last edited by Imran Siddiqui; August 3, 2005, 21:31.
              “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
              - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

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              • And interestingly from the wiki article:

                According to a Historical Moments Essay on the U.S. Senate website, the Republican Party was the first to initiate a filibuster against a judicial nominee in 1968, forcing Democratic president Lyndon Johnson to withdraw the nomination of Associate Supreme Court Justice Abe Fortas to be chief justice.


                Oh, Republicans... pot calling the kettle black here.
                “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
                - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

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                • Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
                  And interestingly from the wiki article:

                  According to a Historical Moments Essay on the U.S. Senate website, the Republican Party was the first to initiate a filibuster against a judicial nominee in 1968, forcing Democratic president Lyndon Johnson to withdraw the nomination of Associate Supreme Court Justice Abe Fortas to be chief justice.


                  Oh, Republicans... pot calling the kettle black here.
                  You omitted the part about him accepting $15,000 in speaking fees which lead to more scrutiny of his acceptance of fees from a friend who was a convicted felon. Fortas' insulation from private interests was certainly a legitimate subject of debate.
                  If you look around and think everyone else is an *******, you're the *******.

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                  • Wikipedia sucks when it comes to things like perspective and context, assigning relative importance to different events and so on.

                    Actually, the thing it's best suited for is finding out if a specific person was gay or not. Rumours of gayness are given high priority also. That, and when people were born and died, fair's fair.

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                    • Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
                      And interestingly from the wiki article:

                      According to a Historical Moments Essay on the U.S. Senate website, the Republican Party was the first to initiate a filibuster against a judicial nominee in 1968, forcing Democratic president Lyndon Johnson to withdraw the nomination of Associate Supreme Court Justice Abe Fortas to be chief justice.


                      Oh, Republicans... pot calling the kettle black here.
                      And that means what to me as I am not a Republican?


                      As for the issue of filibuster you still don't get it. You ascribe the effect of filibuster as the definition. It don't work that way. Filibuster is simply a delay. The effect of that delay MAY be an inevitable negation of the nomination but it is not assured as othe outcomes are possible if not likely. It is however totally appropriate to call a filibuster a means to avoid making a decision as that is its real definition according to wiki and any sane person.


                      One is causal the other is the REAL definition.
                      "Just puttin on the foil" - Jeff Hanson

                      “In a democracy, I realize you don’t need to talk to the top leader to know how the country feels. When I go to a dictatorship, I only have to talk to one person and that’s the dictator, because he speaks for all the people.” - Jimmy Carter

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                      • Originally posted by shawnmmcc
                        Thanks Imran - you made it clear it wasn't just me.

                        Ogie has officially entered the Nedaverse - personal interpretations trumping historical facts, precedents set, and how things work in the actual world. He even admits he doing this to be obnoxious.

                        [q]I simply find it easy pickins to stir up the vast left wing conspirators of 'poly by tweakin them on their typical anti-bush rants[/b]

                        That's the difference, at least Ned had the integrity to actually have a conversation, this is just Ogie being, well, Ogie. BTW, it's nice to know you are now a "vast left wind conspirator." Hell, I guess that makes me a member of Che's communist party.
                        I agree with Ogie, delaying tactics (in this case the filibuster) are not the same thing as going on the record with a vote. While both require a decision to be made in order to implement them, only one is clear and definitive and requires senators to actually take a stand. Not surprisingly they avoid it like the plague. This is true of both parties and has existed in any number of guises through the years.

                        Simply Ogie is right, while you and Imran are wrong. This doesn't bother Imran so much, he gets extra lawyer points for winning an argument when he is wrong. Your ad hominem above is simply an admission of the futility of your arguments in my eyes. Regardless I think we all can agree that the senate is filled to the brim with a lot of disagreeable and spineless turds.
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                        • The lack of a vote is a decision on the part of the Senate. Just as killing it by a blue slip or in the Judiciary Committee is a decision on the part of the Senate. The Senate is structured such that strong majorities can veto the will of a simple majority, and a filibuster is one of the parliamentary tactics that allow that. The same philosophy is why Orrin Hatch gets the same vote as Barbara Boxer; if the popular majority got its way, the Dems wouldn't even need a filibuster to kill the Bolton nomination.

                          But ignoring that, the filibuster against Bolton wasn't simply a "delaying tactic," but a demand for documents that would clarify whether or not Bolton's a partisan hack who would misrepresent intelligence to further political objectives, and thus whether he would be qualified for the job.
                          "Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
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                          • Originally posted by Ramo
                            The Senate is structured such that strong majorities can veto the will of a simple majority,
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                            • Don't interupt them. If you leave them alone they will eventually cry themselves to sleep.
                              "The DPRK is still in a state of war with the U.S. It's called a black out." - Che explaining why orbital nightime pictures of NK show few lights. Seriously.

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                              • Yes Dino, that typo certainly is confusing...
                                "Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
                                -Bokonon

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