Does Poll Show Islam Not Religion of Peace?

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


Hating the members of a particular religious community, doesnt imply that YOUR motivation is religious, especially not where religion is functioning as a marker for ethnicity.

Right. The 'Revd.' Ian Paisley's dislike of the Pope and labelling him the Antichrist is based on sound secular principles.

Personal testimony from the North (which applied to the South too, for a long time):

But giving up one's religion can- especially in the North- involve rejecting so much else that is important to life- the sense of being accepted by one's community, family circle and indeed, entire culture.

Only The River Run Free: Northern Ireland: The Women's War, Pluto Press

Where we find also the quotes following:

[QUOTE] The U.F.F. are the Ulster Freedom Fighters. In his book 'Northern Ireland: The Orange State' Michael Farrell describes them as an 'extreme Loyalist murder squad who announced their intention of killingCatholics in 1973. They claimed responsibility for themurder of an S.D.L.P. senator in June 1973, and subsequently many other Catholics. It is generally assumed that U.F.F. is a pseudonym for U.D.A. murder gangs.

[QUOTE]

In the Republic government social policy is openly based on the Vatican's. (You know, where Antichrist is meant to be) Divorce, for example, is completely illegal, as are abortion and homosexuality. Until 1979, Southern Irishwomen could not even obtain contraception, and in practice many are still unable to. Under the censorship of Information Act, even books and pamphlets about birth control are, in theory, still banned.

...Woman lured man into sin....The sexual values of Irish Catholic society rigidly reflect this one-sideed view of human nature.

Mary Nelis: " Here, after all these years of struggle and war, I think that the only thing you could really say unites the Catholic people IS their Catholicsm. We haven't developed politically. What havewe learned in 12 years, what have we achieved? Nothing. Our Catholicism is what appears to make us oppressed, and our Catholicism is what helps to keep us that way..."

In a similar vein the Kilkeel Democratic Unionist Party attacked the local school for showing 'The Sound of Music' because of its 'distinctive Romanist trend' .

From 'On The Blanket: The H-Block Story' by Tim Pat Coogan, Ward River Press, Dublin:

The best description overall for the differing categories of prisoners, like their counterparts outside the jail, is probably 'Protestant' and 'Catholic'. [...] At his school the Protestant learned English history. The Catholic by contrast learned Irish history and also the Irish language. [...] The differences are as much cultural as religious.

Find me the common denominator- it is religion, isn't it ?

Interesting is it not, that you feel free to engage in this kind of reply to my assertion about the culture and government policy of Eire:

An inbuilt Catholic bias???? Geez louise.

despite admitting later that:

I freely admit to not having read anything on 20th century Ireland, and I should .

And then have the chutzpah to presume that I have not:

... ever read a book on Al Qaeda, or related groups? It doesn't sound like you have.

and claim that I'm:

engaging in absurd sophistry.

So, based on your inaccurate assumption, let's imagine that nearly twenty years ago at university I never debated with a Sunni fundmentalist biologist from Pakistan at the Islamic Society's meeting, about his view that A.I.D.S and H.I.V. were divinely ordained punishments for sexual misconduct, based on his view that animals didn't acquire these diseases and his reading of the Qu'ran.

He was soundly mocked by members of the audience who Muslims and science students, who told him to his face that his sort of science was bringing both science and Islam into disrepute.

Let's also imagine that I have never read 'Militant Islam' by G.H. Jansen, or 'The Society of the Muslim Brothers' by R.P. Mitchell, or indeed any other book pertaining to the rise of Muslim fundamentalist organisations around the world, because that's an easy assumption to make when I draw comparisons about a society and history and religious divide you freely claim to know little or nothing about and one you infer that you do, and I do not.

[Odin]

Originally posted by Heresson
That You don't need a brain to have a soul doesn't mean that everything without a brain has a soul.

The concept of a soul is the biggest sham in history.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Sava

Glad to see you back, Sava

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Az
loyalty being defined as a sense of obligation before someone, due to one's beliefs and convictions.

Beliefs and convictions are possible causes of loyalty, but they aren't the only ones. The feeling of identity (which can have to do with birth, with initiation rituals and so on) is a strong factor of loyalty, and is different than the support to a value system (identification is "emotional", support to values is "evaluative").

When I visited Sweden as a tourist, I fell in love with what I saw of the Swedish ethos I found it vastly superior to the French one. However, I am still more loyal to France than to Sweden (despite being quite a rational guy).

In the poll, among the people who don't feel loyal to Britain, there might be people who loathe what Britain stands for.
But there can also be people who intended to migrate in Britain for a few years (and thus who stay attached to their homeland) ; there can be people who stayed in communities and thus kept their previous lifestyle (thus not identifying with the British identity) etc. I'm not saying it's a good thing, as I'm an outspoken opponent of communitarism, but I'm saying that the lack of loyalty is a complex phenomenon.

[Az]

The feeling of identity (which can have to do with birth, with initiation rituals and so on) is a strong factor of loyalty

And how are they having any of that?

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Az

The feeling of identity (which can have to do with birth, with initiation rituals and so on) is a strong factor of loyalty

And how are they having any of that?

Maybe a good chunk of the respondants are born in Britain, have had cultural Britons as friends for years, etc?

[Az]

Maybe a good chunk of the respondants are born in Britain, have had cultural Britons as friends for years, etc?

Just like the terrorists.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Az

Maybe a good chunk of the respondants are born in Britain, have had cultural Britons as friends for years, etc?

Just like the terrorists.

Yes, so what?
I'm not saying that birth insures loyalty. I'm saying loyalty is a complex phenomenon. The feeling of identity (or lack thereof) plays an important role in the construction of loyalty, but it's not the only factor.

Just like the factors you cited, while being actual factors, aren't the only ones either.

[Az]

Yes, and the 30% that didn't feel that 'British values' are even approximating their own, are not loyal, because their feeling of identity which is also a function of values, is also flawed enough.

[Spiffor]

You're having a too narrow definition of loyalty. Don't forget that the wording of the question used this word directly, which means that the respondent could interpret the question in whatever way he fashions. Possible interpretations by the respondents are:
"During the next cricket match, will you cheer for Britain or Pakistan?"
"Do you feel loyal first toward your fellow Britons, or toward your fellow Muslims?"
"Do you think the values of Britain match your own?"
etc.

Not all respondents will factor the British values when they'll answer on the word "loyal". Actually, I imagine they're a minority to do so. Only the ones who are most hostile to British values would let that item weight in their assessment of their "loyalty".

[Imran Siddiqui]

Very good point... in loyalty they may be thinking about whether they are more loyal to Britain or their homelands. My parents have been in the US for over 30 years, participate in politics, have many, many friends in the US, but if you asked them what country they are more loyal to, they'd probably say Pakistan. That's not saying they aren't loyal at all to the US.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
In the attempt to demonstrate this with examples from the 20th century, somebody turned to Ireland. Which it seems to me, while an awful tragedy, is hardly an example of violence inspired fundamentalist religion in the way AQ and related islamist groups are. That the IRA wanted, for purely secular reasons, to join an Irish Republic that has an inbuilt Catholic bias hardly makes them religiously based the way groups that advocate radical versions of sharia, and denounce the very idea of a state that isnt based purely on Islam, and call for the return of the caliphate, is kinda silly.

That was me.

My point was being a Christian does not automatically make a person peaceful. OTOH, being a Muslim does not automatically make a person violent.

AFAIK, this suicidal attack thing was denounced by mainstream Islamic scholars several years back. Right after 9/11 I believe.

[Az]

You're having a too narrow definition of loyalty. Don't forget that the wording of the question used this word directly, which means that the respondent could interpret the question in whatever way he fashions. Possible interpretations by the respondents are:
"During the next cricket match, will you cheer for Britain or Pakistan?"
"Do you feel loyal first toward your fellow Britons, or toward your fellow Muslims?"
"Do you think the values of Britain match your own?"
etc.

Not all respondents will factor the British values when they'll answer on the word "loyal". Actually, I imagine they're a minority to do so. Only the ones who are most hostile to British values would let that item weight in their assessment of their "loyalty".

You're quite possibly making my point for me. You're having to be quite anti-briton to say that you're disloyal to Britain, while living there. But there are plenty of other points that show that these people are non-britons, in that they don't support and don't feel allegiance with the UK, and they don't even have Imran's parents' excuse of being 1st gen immigrants.

[Datajack Franit]

Surprise surprise, another thread discussing Islam turning into a thread discussing IRA