"We are now satisfied that he was not connected with the incidents" part II

[Patroklos]

I would agree with Agathon's flight or flight response position in theory, which seem to be the mantra dragged back into this thread by the causists, but that is an instinctual response that is easily countered by logic and intellignece. You guys remember those don't you, the things that make us different from animals.

It call comes back to the fact that he was a dumbass, and escalated the situation for no reason.

[Asher]

When a cop tries to pull you over for speeding, do you run?

If you're mugged on the street, do you run?

The most common reaction would be to freeze in terror, not run.

[Bereta_Eder]

Originally posted by Patroklos
I would agree with Agathon's flight or flight response position in theory, which seem to be the mantra dragged back into this thread by the causists, but that is an instinctual response that is easily countered by logic and intellignece. You guys remember those don't you, the things that make us different from animals.

Sure. When our lives are not threatened.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Patroklos
I would agree with Agathon's flight or flight response position in theory, which seem to be the mantra dragged back into this thread by the causists, but that is an instinctual response that is easily countered by logic and intellignece. You guys remember those don't you, the things that make us different from animals.

It call comes back to the fact that he was a dumbass, and escalated the situation for no reason.

My point was that this happens all the time and one of the effects is that it impairs logic and reason and leads to impulsive behaviour. In this case, and the case of the hot pursuit soccer moms (that sounds like Asher's other thread) it's likely that people panic and run contrary to reason, because they are no longer in effect rational creatures. What rational person would ****e their pants? But that happens too.

That's why I think that shooting because people run is not a sufficient justification. The police will say this themselves too, with regard to car chases. I don't see why it's any different here.

[Asher]

I don't see why it's any different here.

The risk tradeoff is completely different when you're dealing with someone you have reason to believe will kill dozens of people, and someone you believe stole some money or whatever...

[JimmyCracksCorn]

Originally posted by Asher
When a cop tries to pull you over for speeding, do you run?

If you're mugged on the street, do you run?

The most common reaction would be to freeze in terror, not run.

Says you. Someone else could have the opposite reaction.

Guys. This poor man was jumped, pinned down, then shot in the head. Over five times.

Witnesses said Mr. Menezes was wearing a heavy, padded coat when plainclothes police chased him into a subway car, pinned him to the ground and shot him dead.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20050726.wbrazil0726/BNStory/International/?query=brazilian+shot+head

Repeat: He was pinned down, then shot several times. In the head. As in, at point blank range. More than once. Thats not law enforcement, thats murder.

How is this act, in any way, defensible?

[Asher]

That's the first time I've heard he was pinned down, and miraculously there is no primary source for it...

Given the tone of the article, and the place it was written, I'm not surprised they would make an assertion without any backing.

There would be no reason to shoot him if they had actually pinned him reliably. From all of the witness reports I've read, he half-tripped and was half-pushed to the ground, at which point he was shot in the head and shoulder.

If he was pinned down when they started shooting I very much doubt they'd hit his shoulder and not his head...

Maybe the definition of "pinned" means something different overseas or in Brazil. Here it means they would not be able to move at all, hands or any other limb.

From the witness descriptions, he was not pinned. A blanket article written in Brazil without a primary source for saying he was pinned is pretty suspect.

[Gibsie]

so you're saying that if he was pinned down and then shot repeatedly ten it'd be wrong of the police, Asher? Just so we're clear...

[Asher]

Originally posted by Gibsie
so you're saying that if he was pinned down and then shot repeatedly ten it'd be wrong of the police, Asher? Just so we're clear...

If he was pinned to the point of being unable to move his arms and legs, then I believe it would've been wrong to shoot him.

Unfortunately that wasn't the case. I just did an exhaustive search of Google News and I can't find a single quote from a witness saying he was pinned. Strangely they all come from Brazillian-sourced articles with a blanket statement like "he was pinned to the ground and brutally shot dead 8 times"

The closest I could find was a quote from a witness saying "while he was being pinned" he was shot, which is very, very different from saying he was pinned.

[Alexander's Horse]

The point is in the UK if you ran you would have no reasonable expectation of being shot because the new policy was not announced. It would be the same in Australia or New Zealand.

North America is a very different story. I don't know about Canada but in the USA with its trigger happy gun culture and raging authoritarianism, I think being shot for running would be a reasonable expectation. I wouldn't.

[JimmyCracksCorn]

Asher, I got that from the Globe and Mail, and the article came from AP.

I also read this in the hard copy Globe and Mail as well.

[JimmyCracksCorn]

The many decisions which led anti-terrorism units to pursue the Brazilian electrician on to a train, then pin him down and fire five bullets into his head, will be painstakingly picked apart by at least two inquiries.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/editorial/the-death-of-mr-de-menezes/2005/07/25/1122143780686.html?oneclick=true

Menezes was killed in a London Underground station as the police investigated a wave of botched bombings the day before and the deadly transit bombings of July 7. Witnesses said he was wearing a heavy, padded coat when plainclothes police chased him into an Underground car, pinned him to the floor and shot him.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/07/26/news/brazil.php

The man shot Friday at the Stockwell subway station was identified as Jean Charles de Menezes, 27. Witnesses said he was wearing a heavy, padded coat when plainclothes police chased him into a subway car, pinned him to the ground and shot him five times in the head and torso in front of horrified passengers.

http://www.insidebayarea.com/argus/news/ci_2888390

Witnesses said Mr Menezes was wearing a heavy, padded coat when plainclothes police chased him into a subway car, pinned him to the ground and shot him in the head.

http://newpaper.asia1.com.sg/news/story/0,4136,92149,00.html

Not one Brazilian source, all quoted from witnesses.

Edit: And all "pinned" in the past tense, not the past progressive "being pinned".

[Asher]

That's funny, I don't see any witness quotes in there.

And amazingly enough, they're all suspect articles again. The headline of the last one was "HIS POOR PARENTS SAY: Jean went there to work, to send us money"...

The ones that aren't amazingly biased just take it as a fact that witnesses say it, but again, I've never seen any quotes from witnesses saying that.

There is some mysterious witness out there, but no one actually has a quote for him. Isn't that a bit suspicious to you? It sounds like they're all referencing eachother...

[KrazyHorse]

Given the prevalence of CCTV in Britain, shouldn't there be footage of the chase, the capture and the shooting?

They should release that to the public. Make it much easier to judge the reasonableness of the use of deadly force.

[Alexander's Horse]

assuming the cameras were working