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  • Closed circuit cameras are watching you...

    ...scratch your balls in public places.

    Should use of these cameras be expanded for police work or anti-terrorism work? Should use be discontinued altogether? Should we have a camera watching every street corner?

    This revisitation of the question is brought on in my neighborhood by the apparent usefulness of these cameras in figuring out who were the London bombers. We haven't used them too much in DC because of privacy concerns and the criminal-political complex taking over the city. We do have cameras on Metro, which, among other things, has seemed to make the system very safe.

    What say you, Apolyton?

    D.C. Considering More Police Cameras
    London Bombings Prompt New Debate on Surveillance of Public Places

    By Eric M. Weiss
    Washington Post Staff Writer
    Thursday, July 14, 2005; Page B01

    Mayor Anthony A. Williams (D) said yesterday that his administration will look into increasing the use of surveillance cameras in the District, as part of a study of lessons from last week's terrorist bombings in London.

    The D.C. police department has 14 such cameras, most of them in the downtown area, that feed images to a high-tech operations center. Williams said he would like to see them turned on and monitored more often, and he also proposed adding cameras to neighborhoods, parks, recreation centers and commercial areas throughout the city.

    "I have always been for broader use of cameras," Williams said. "I do not think that cameras are this big mortal threat to civil liberties that people are painting them out to be."

    The mayor's comments reopen a debate that broke out three years ago after D.C. Council members learned about the camera system, which had been installed without their knowledge. In response to concerns from the council and some members of Congress, the police department came up with guidelines designed to ensure that privacy rights would not be abused.

    Those guidelines, which the council approved, call for the cameras to be used only to monitor traffic, large demonstrations and city emergencies. The regulations also say that the cameras can be installed only in public spaces where people would have a reasonable expectation of being videotaped, and they bar police from using the devices to watch for street crime.

    In an emergency, police also have access to hundreds of cameras used by Metro, the D.C. Department of Transportation, the public schools and federal agencies.

    Williams made his comments during his weekly news conference when asked what steps the District is taking in response to the London bombings. Security camera footage from a London train station, which showed four men with backpacks on the morning of the bombings, has been a key piece of evidence in the investigation of that attack.

    Council member Kathy Patterson (D-Ward 3), one of those who pushed for the legislation that regulates the surveillance system, said she is open to expanding the use of cameras as long as it is done within the present guidelines.

    Council member Phil Mendelson (D-At Large), chairman of the Judiciary Committee, said he was concerned about the prospect of taking police officers off the street to stare at video monitors waiting for crime to happen. And he noted that the footage in London was used to confirm the identity of the bombers but did not prevent the bombing.

    Police Chief Charles H. Ramsey said he supports expanding the camera program, both as an anti-terror measure and as a crime-fighting tool in neighborhoods.

    "Cameras can play a vital role, and I think in terms of day-to-day crime fighting, you could see a very positive result," he said. "Again, there need to be controls that ensure people's rights are protected. But I think in public space, and with the procedures we already have in place, it would be something well worth doing and I support it 100 percent."

    Some D.C. police cameras were active yesterday as part of the elevated terror alert in place since the London bombings, police spokesman Kevin Morison said.

    Marc Rotenberg, executive director of the District-based Electronic Privacy Information Center, said New York, Chicago and Baltimore are among the U.S. cities that have embraced the extensive use of surveillance cameras. Chicago has about 100 of them, Morison said.

    Williams suggested that one way to protect privacy rights would be to keep the tapes in the custody of civilian groups, a policy that he said Sydney, Australia, has adopted. "That's a distinction with a difference," Williams said.

    The D.C. camera network was first used on Sept. 11, 2001. Police said the cameras have aided security efforts on the anniversary of the terrorist attacks, during protests against the World Bank and International Monetary Fund and in the aftermath of the 2002 sniper attacks.

    Williams also announced yesterday that city police are intensifying efforts to enlist the business community in preventing terrorism. Police have sent letters to business organizations to promote an initiative called Operation TIPP -- Terrorist Incident Prevention Program.

    The program is focused on gathering intelligence from business owners and workers who may get suspicious inquiries, such as requests to purchase items that could be used in terror attacks. It began in January with the operation of a toll-free telephone number for businesses and employees to report suspicious activities: 877-YOU-WATCH.
    19
    CCTV use should end altogether; we need to protect our civil liberties!
    15.79%
    3
    CCTV use should be expanded, although limits are needed
    47.37%
    9
    Two cameras for every street; the police never have too many tools!
    36.84%
    7
    Last edited by DanS; July 14, 2005, 16:56.
    I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

  • #2
    Yeah, and the more the merrier.

    I don't mind people watching me scratch my balls, because:
    a) Everyone does it.
    b) If anyone enjoys watching me do this, they're having issues, not me.
    c) the most important - it helps to prevent crime.
    urgh.NSFW

    Comment


    • #3
      Personally I don't fully appreciate the privacy argument, assuming that the CCTV is in a public place. You are in a public place where anyone can see you, so why be overly concerned that you are being seen by a camera.

      Its highly unlikely that the footage would ever be used except when a crime has been commited or there is good porn. Its not in anyone's interest to waste time watching the footage otherwise.
      One day Canada will rule the world, and then we'll all be sorry.

      Comment


      • #4
        precisely.
        urgh.NSFW

        Comment


        • #5
          I don't mind them, but I'd personally like them more if they made it mandatory for operators to publicize the Female Leg Shot of the Week. Actually, I have reason to believe it'd immensely increase CCT popularity in general.

          Comment


          • #6
            For some reason, the UK has seemed to lead the way on CCTV use. Not sure why.
            I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by DanS
              For some reason, the UK has seemed to lead the way on CCTV use. Not sure why.
              It was a response to the IRA, and initially the protection of the Square Mile.
              One day Canada will rule the world, and then we'll all be sorry.

              Comment


              • #8
                Do you think the use of CCTV has reduced crime besides?
                I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

                Comment


                • #9
                  Reduce, debatable. Solve and prosecute, yes.
                  One day Canada will rule the world, and then we'll all be sorry.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    That would be great to have better solve and prosecute capabilities here in DC.

                    Put 'em in the slammer.
                    I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Dauphin
                      Personally I don't fully appreciate the privacy argument, assuming that the CCTV is in a public place. You are in a public place where anyone can see you, so why be overly concerned that you are being seen by a camera.
                      Anyone can see you, but no one can keep that on tape for for as long as they want to.

                      Also, with improvements in recognition software it would be possible to take a huge but not really searchable database of millions of video hours and turn it into a database containing all your movemements, the people with whom you interacted, etc.

                      That said, the idea is good as long as it's in responsible hands and the system has various restrictions such as deleting all material older than X days/weeks/months and maybe something along the lines of having judges authorize tracking specific people, like with wiretapping.

                      The question is what are we going to do when/if a bad guy in power begins to abuse the system?
                      "Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master" - Commissioner Pravin Lal.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I find such talk amusing. You really think there is going to be an uber-database of CCTV from across the country designed to track your movements, complete with filing and indexing?

                        One day Canada will rule the world, and then we'll all be sorry.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          These cameras are used a lot in Chicago in high crime areas. (probably more than in London) There are always articles that they are expanding the program since they have proven successful. At first the crime just moved but as they got more of them, there are fewer places for the crime to move to.

                          Since they are in public places, I also have no problem with the privacy issues. And I agree that the amount of data generated would make it quite difficult to use for many things that I would object to.
                          It's almost as if all his overconfident, absolutist assertions were spoonfed to him by a trusted website or subreddit. Sheeple
                          RIP Tony Bogey & Baron O

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by rah
                            These cameras are used a lot in Chicago in high crime areas. (probably more than in London)
                            I would find that hard to believe, as there are a lot of cameras here. There are something like 7,000 on the Underground system alone, plus every train carriage and most buses have them. Its not an exaggeration to say that wherever you are in the streets of London you can spot at least one camera.
                            One day Canada will rule the world, and then we'll all be sorry.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Dauphin
                              I find such talk amusing. You really think there is going to be an uber-database of CCTV from across the country designed to track your movements, complete with filing and indexing?

                              No, because the voters will not accept that(at least in the present). Again, IMO the idea is good with proper restrictions but you cannot ignore the tendency of these restrictions to erode as soon as excuses are available.

                              Assume that you install such system in the States and that by 2009 a rudimentary but working facial recognition system is available. As you pointed out earlier, the system today is used mainly to solve crime but that is a cause of our technical inability to monitor all cameras at once. With the new software, such constant monitoring can be achieved and then, even with proper restrictions in place, all you need is another 9/11(a 99.9% probability for that happening IMO) for these restriction to go the way of the Dodo.
                              "Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master" - Commissioner Pravin Lal.

                              Comment

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