Guns, Germs, and Steel PBS miniseries discussion thread.

[JohnT]

I'm not trying to "paint" anything. I'm stating it unequivically.

[GePap]

Then my point to Molly stands. Territorial expansion is something all empires and states do, if given the chance. The Europeans were given that chance. So they took it. No culture at work there.

[JohnT]

Others had that chance. They didn't take it. Culture was at work there, just as it was when Europe did it. To deny human involvement, human cultures, in understanding human development is just silly, GePap.

[GePap]

Originally posted by JohnT
Others had that chance. They didn't take it

False. No one else had the same chance to land on the Americas as Europeans, who had already done it by 1000ad given just how close it is as compared to how far away it was from the other advanced cultures.

Culture was at work there, just as it was when Europe did it. To deny human involvement, human cultures, in understanding human development is just silly, GePap.

Sorry JohnT, but I doubt you would be able even to define the cultural differences that mattered in a coherent way. Culture is a vague term with fuzzy borders, and currently not worth a damn for anything as ambitious as a grand history of human development.

Diamond's ideas are not even fully deterministic- there has been plenty of luck and random events and the acts of individual human beings that influenced history. But the grand macrohistory, which is what we seek to explain today, is certainly NOT run by something as vague and ill-defined as "culture".

Hell, economics has a better chance of expaling human development (and in essence, much fo Diamond's work can be seen as how geography influences the different "economies" societies have to work with) in the macor scale than "culture".

[Spiffor]

I'd like to know what has changed so radically in China's geography, so that China:
1. Commissioned an ambitious expedition with the most modern fleet of the time (Zheng He)
2. Completely stopped exploring the world after Zheng He's voyage...

Obviously, the answers to that question must lie in a change in the Chinese geography or biology.

[JohnT]

Obviously.

GePap, is it your thing to resort to ad hominems when you're frustrated? Cause you do it a lot.

[GePap]

Originally posted by JohnT
Obviously.

GePap, is it your thing to resort to ad hominems when you're frustrated? Cause you do it a lot.

Its a ad hominems to state you can't even define culture?

Cause you never have even attempted in this thread. All you say is: "culture matters". Fine, then argue that, instead of just claiming it. And you would need to start by explaining what culture is and how you create or spot differences.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Spiffor
I'd like to know what has changed so radically in China's geography, so that China:
1. Commissioned an ambitious expedition with the most modern fleet of the time (Zheng He)
2. Completely stopped exploring the world after Zheng He's voyage...

Obviously, the answers to that question must lie in a change in the Chinese geography or biology.

Actually, the point is that the very same traits that made China capable of making that fleet made it capable of deciding to stop.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Spiffor
I'd like to know what has changed so radically in China's geography, so that China:
1. Commissioned an ambitious expedition with the most modern fleet of the time (Zheng He)
2. Completely stopped exploring the world after Zheng He's voyage...

Obviously, the answers to that question must lie in a change in the Chinese geography or biology.

GePap is actually right, for once. The cause for both can be the same.

For instance, the cause of Japan's entrance into WWII was the same as the cause of its defeat.

[JohnT]

Spiffor is asking how the geography affected the decision. Both decisions, actually.

[Spiffor]

Actually, the point is that the very same traits that made China capable of making that fleet made it capable of deciding to stop.

You mean, a strong centralized government, that could even stop all maritime activity for decades? A narrowminded society that considers that it knows everything it should, and that these fancy "discoveries" are really not worth the hassle, all things considered?

Maybe so. However, the link between this state of affairs and geography is extremely tenuous, at best. It's no surprise that Diamond avoids spending too much time on the "Why Europe" topic.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by JohnT
Spiffor is asking how the geography affected the decision. Both decisions, actually.

No he's not.

Obviously, the answers to that question must lie in a change in the Chinese geography or biology.

He's claiming that, under Diamond's theory, China's geography must've changed between the two decisions, as a method of discrediting it.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
No he's not.

He's claiming that, under Diamond's theory, China's geography must've changed between the two decisions, as a method of discrediting it.

I'm not speaking about Diamond's theory, as I haven't read the book. I made a jibe at the geographic determinism. While Geography has certainly been an important factor in the development of civilization, the belief that it explains everything (along with biology) looks like a bunch of crap to me (I wanted to include the word "pseudoscience", but such belief isn't even worthy of that word).

[Kuciwalker]

I'm not speaking about Diamond's theory, as I haven't read the book. I made a jibe at the geographic determinism.

Either way, your remark was incorrect.

[Spiffor]

Your smartassery aside, you haven't justified how geography determined both decisions. I have expressed two "cultural" possibilities, which may be somehow related to China's geography. I'm eager to know how these factors have been not merely influenced, but determined by geography/biology.

If you want to argue that geography/biology has contributed to the decision, but that it wasn't the only factor, far from it, I would find it very acceptable. That may even be Diamond's position for all I know. However, that's not what GePap argues.