Soemthing new for the weapons freaks

[Sikander]

Originally posted by shawnmmcc
I doubt that overpenetration is as big a factor with a grenade launcher in an urban environment - but I could be wrong, the people to ask are the Marines in Iraq right now. If the houses are of frame construction, that could be an issue - except you machine guns will penetrate the walls without too much trouble, and if the grenade penetrates to the next room - it takes out both.

In your brick/concrete environments, I would want the extra explosive power while upgrading munitions for lethality. These newer rounds may take advantage of more modern prefragmentation technology, though frankly I would think the M40 would also be using that. I have no issue with the new weapon itself, but if it had been instead designed for the older 40mm rounds, you could have the best of both worlds. I am assuming that the less flat trajectory of the heavier round would be LESS of a disadvantage with this weapon. However, they wouldn't get all the new ammunition sales, too.

The overpenetration I'm talking about isn't plowing through interior walls so much as sailing well past the targets before hitting something to set itself off.

Like you, I see no reason why this round would have a lethality advantage over the 40mm given that both rounds are put on target. 40mm has been more or less constantly improved over the many years that it has been in service.

The only negative I can see for this weapon is that it now lacks the blooper's capability for indirect fire. Getting an angle for the shrapnel from a 25mm round isn't the same thing as having a larger round capable of high angle fire. In most situations the new weapon will probably be superior, but it doesn't look like it is going to fit into the light mortar nitch.

[Sikander]

Something I just thought of is that the new round would be able to put a higher percentage of its fragments into play because it will usually air burst, while the 40mm will typically explode in contact with the ground.

[SpencerH]

That is a factor but I think you're underplaying the advantages of an fragmentation weapon with the accuracy of a rifle (in the hands of an expert). I've never fired a 40mm grenade launcher (M79 or M203) but I doubt that the accuracy is any better than a 60mm mortar (which I have used) i.e. they are area weapons.
LAW's have been used for the same selective purposes but in my experience they are not accurate enough over 150M (especially not in the hands of your average grunt). This thing allows you to selectively take out pinpoint targets.

Some more info:

"The XM25 air-burst assault weapon is a next-generation, semi-automatic weapon system designed for effectiveness against enemies protected by walls, dug into foxholes, or hidden in hard-to-reach places.

The XM25 provides the soldier with a 300 to 500% increase in hit probability to defeat point, area, and defilade targets out to 500 meters. The weapon features revolutionary high-explosive, air-burst ammunition programmed by the weapon's target acquisition/fire control system.

The XM25 integrates ballistics computation in the full-solution Target Acquisition/Fire Control (TA/FC) system. The soldier places the aim point on target and activates the laser rangefinder. The fire control system provides an adjusted aim point. The soldier places the adjusted aim point on target and pulls the trigger. Target information is communicated to the chambered 25mm round. As the round speeds down range, it measures the distance traveled and bursts precisely at the distance preprogrammed.

The XM25 precisely delivers air-bursting munitions in all conditions, including MOUT and complex terrain. It is five times more lethal at the M203 maximum range and continues to provide lethality well beyond the M203's maximum ability. The system is designed for optimum performance at 300 meters but will perform to 500 meters and beyond.

MINNEAPOLIS, April 27 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- Alliant Techsystems (NYSE: ATK - News) has delivered the first six prototype XM25 advanced airbursting weapon systems to the U.S. Army for field-testing. The XM25 fires a High Explosive (HE), air bursting 25mm round capable of defeating an enemy behind a wall, inside a building or in a foxhole. The advanced design allows the operator to program the round so that it flies to the target and detonates at a precise point in the air. It does not require impact to detonate. The XM25 is ideal for urban combat. It puts precision firepower in the hands of the soldier, allowing them to eliminate threats without causing significant collateral damage. "The initial field tests are very promising," said LTC Matthew Clarke, U.S. Army project manager, individual weapons. "A weapon system like the XM25 will prove invaluable to our warfighters. It will be a clear differentiator on the battlefield."

The revolutionary fire control system for the XM25 employs an advanced laser rangefinder that transmits information to the chambered 25mm round. As the round flies downrange to the target, it precisely measures the distance traveled and detonates at exactly the right moment to deliver maximum effectiveness. The XM25 increases the warfighter's probability of hit-to-kill performance by up to 500 percent over existing weapons. It also extends the effective range of the soldier's individual weapon to more than 500 meters.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by SpencerH
That is a factor but I think you're underplaying the advantages of an fragmentation weapon with the accuracy of a rifle (in the hands of an expert). I've never fired a 40mm grenade launcher (M79 or M203) but I doubt that the accuracy is any better than a 60mm mortar (which I have used) i.e. they are area weapons.
LAW's have been used for the same selective purposes but in my experience they are not accurate enough over 150M (especially not in the hands of your average grunt). This thing allows you to selectively take out pinpoint targets.

I agree that this looks superior in most cases, I just was puzzled by the increased lethality claim assuming that both rounds are on target. If their claims of increased lethality are based on the superior accuracy of the round then it isn't really puzzling at all, just a bit of salesmanship for the system.

I've fired the M203 and found it harder to put on target than I thought it would be. I fired it less than 10 times, so perhaps I just didn't get the hang of it. I think I would have had an easier time with the M79, as that thing had one purpose only. I fired the LAW 3 times, and scored very good hits each time on a moving target at fairly close range, which came as a surprise really. I didn't have much confidence in the sights, but it proved pretty accurate at short range as you say. At long range the slow speed of the rocket and its largish profile would make it harder to put on target, particularly with any kind of wind.

[SpencerH]

Originally posted by Sikander


I agree that this looks superior in most cases, I just was puzzled by the increased lethality claim assuming that both rounds are on target. If their claims of increased lethality are based on the superior accuracy of the round then it isn't really puzzling at all, just a bit of salesmanship for the system.

Yes one might expect a larger round to be more effective but it may also be a function of air burst vs ground burst.

I've fired the M203 and found it harder to put on target than I thought it would be. I fired it less than 10 times, so perhaps I just didn't get the hang of it. I think I would have had an easier time with the M79, as that thing had one purpose only. I fired the LAW 3 times, and scored very good hits each time on a moving target at fairly close range, which came as a surprise really. I didn't have much confidence in the sights, but it proved pretty accurate at short range as you say. At long range the slow speed of the rocket and its largish profile would make it harder to put on target, particularly with any kind of wind.

You did pretty well with the LAW then. Aside from the primitive sights, most of the problems come from the stupid trigger which can be hard to depress without also depressing the whole weapon. I dont know how many monkeys I've stopped from firing the damn things into the ground in front of them while acting as a range safety NCO.