Rugby - Hands Off White!

[Havak]

I'm off site today gents so will catch up with your comments on Tuesday.

If i were Eddie what would worry me most was that it was a pretty poor display by England to be honest.

And the All Blacks are going to be too much for us i am sure - we might get a lot of ball (might, I said!) but they will murder us in the backs. Tindall and Noon both had shockers.

Anyone (but me) got thoughts to share about the Nonu citing?

[child of Thor]

Originally posted by finbar


It's a tradition, Cal, in keeping with the traditions of the game.

I think we have to keep our Hands Off (INSERT COLOR)! theme going. We just need to come up with another team/colour to malign. We've done the Wallabies and England, how about Red for Wales next? Or Blue for France? But don't Scotland play in blue, too? Mmmm. Hang on, Scotland never gets their hands on the ball in order to be told to take them off again.

I was going to suggest that for wales ref the forwards inability to set up a decent platform recently

"Try to get Hands on red!" etc

@Havak - i got a view on nonu's spear tackle.
But first i'll mention the Great Britain vs New Zealand rugby league clash. They had a spear tackle in that(where the tackler picks up the tackled player, turns them so their head is facing the ground and drops them, either with force or without) - and the player was sinbinned in a second. Its not like its difficult to spot a spear tackle!

So nonu got cited - i expect he will get of, as unlike the tackle with O'Driscol there was no attempt to drive the irish player into the ground. Still with these tackles i think you need to be harsh on the players that do them. At the end of the day you can paralyse a player with those tackles, and becomeing a cripple over a game isn't worth it imho - normal rugby is physicaly demanding enough. So i hope, just to send a message to the players that nonu gets some back lash and isn't just let of, but i suspect it will come to nothing. Maybe when we finaly have a world known player confined to a wheelchair attitudes will change?

On another topic i felt Wales were fortunate to beat Fiji by 1 point.
England probably deserved the win over Australia due to their forwards looking more commited.
Scotland played as good as i can remember over the last few years - so i feel a little sorry for their loss, taking on the Argantine pack was good to see.

Wales vs SA - its not going to be pretty.

And i think IF any teams pack can start to get the AB's on the back foot, then they might have a chance in this grand slam

[finbar]

Originally posted by Havak
I'm off site today gents so will catch up with your comments on Tuesday.

If i were Eddie what would worry me most was that it was a pretty poor display by England to be honest.

You mean those gleeful boasting types on the BBC rugby forum were deluding themselves? I'm shocked.

The expert comments chap on Five Live thought they'd have to improve by 50% to have a show against the ABs.

Anyone (but me) got thoughts to share about the Nonu citing?

I wish I'd seen it to have thoughts. I've only seen the still photo.

[ravagon]

Originally posted by finbar

J. Kaplan? A famously pedantic Bok.

I'm going to have to stop reading PR. They have the ref listed as some chap named Deaker from NZ.

No he's not. His contract is till the next World Cup. There's no review process prior to that unless the ARU decide to instigate one.

I think that's exactly what they've done. Quite honestly though I'm not sure who they'd bring in to replace him. He has to take some responsibility I guess but then so do the selectors.

If i were Eddie what would worry me most was that it was a pretty poor display by England to be honest.

If I were an Englishman, what would worry me most was that it was a pretty poor display by England.
Both for the fact that they've got the AB's next week and because A. Robinson can point to the previous game as resulting in a win.

[Havak]

And believe me I am worried on both counts.

I suspect our pack will give the ABs more problems than any other unit this year - it doesn't really matter as both the Aussies and ABs put huge scores on us in 2004 with only about 40% of the pill.

We will finally find out how good Hayman really is though - Sheridan is a huge test for what is probably the ABs best front rower in a decade.

I hope Dunning is okay. He was never even hurt of course (timing is everything when you wear wattle eh Finbar?) but what he was is out of his depth. I would fear for Dunning in domestic club rugby - he just isn't good enough and needs to think very carefully about playing on at International level.

[finbar]

Originally posted by ravagon


I'm going to have to stop reading PR. They have the ref listed as some chap named Deaker from NZ.

That would be Kelvin Deaker, certainly a Kiwi, but he would never have been reffing an ABs Test. He could be reffing one of the other non-AB autumn Tests.

I think that's exactly what they've done. Quite honestly though I'm not sure who they'd bring in to replace him. He has to take some responsibility I guess but then so do the selectors.

The only references to a review that I've seen have been in the myriad media attacks. Nothing official has been announced. The short list to replace him would be very very short - Ewen McKenzie from the Waratahs. But he's only been coaching S12 for two seasons and remains an unknown quantity. He has also gone on record, yesterday, defending the two props who were smashed on the weekend. They're Waratahs. He said the problem wasn't that they weren't good enough, just lacking confidence. I think the evidence clearly is that they're not good enough.

It's interesting that Eddie has revealed that he asked the ARU for a "scrum school" after the last World Cup. The current ARU chief seems to be saying he has no recall of that but agrees, now, that it would be a good idea.

The reality is, as SMH rugby writer Greg Growden has pointed out, that Australia has never had a scrum culture. Australia has always been the land of the backs. It's simplistic to argue that S12, with its attack-based culture, is responsible for the dearth of Australian props who can scrummage. (S12 hasn't stopped the Kiwis producing some handy ones) Over the years, Australia has had very few bona fide scrummaging props. Particularly locally-raised ones. Richard Harry and, ironically, Ewen McKenzie were probably the last of them. Topo Rodriguez, twenty years ago, was probably Australia's best ever. And he learned his rugby in forwards-oriented Argentina. There's no instant solution because there's very little raw material. So, at a time when powerful front rows are the go, there's no instant answer.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Havak
I suspect our pack will give the ABs more problems than any other unit this year - it doesn't really matter as both the Aussies and ABs put huge scores on us in 2004 with only about 40% of the pill.

That's the point. Possession is meaningless unless you capitalise on it. Didn't England have 70% on the weekend?

I hope Dunning is okay. He was never even hurt of course (timing is everything when you wear wattle eh Finbar?) but what he was is out of his depth. I would fear for Dunning in domestic club rugby - he just isn't good enough and needs to think very carefully about playing on at International level.

Never even hurt? I doubt that he invented the pins and needles. If he's not good enough, that's another matter.

[Havak]

You'll just have to trust me on this one.

Said Eddie to the ARU as they asked “did you really tell the BBC these losses make you stronger?�

On the issue of Rogers I will take your word – I thought he faded out the game in the second half – but then he saw very little ball it has to be said.

McMeniman might make it I think. He messed up one restart spectacularly – and struggled in the line out and scrum – but his work rate never dropped and he was certainly more visible than Sharpe (whom the commentator insisted had done well in Marseille?). Perhaps still lacks the necessary bulk right now.

Delete him, insert Drew Mitchell and the average soars again

They did, it did. Good player. Johansson made a cameo late on I think – solid lad.

They couldn't do any worse.

He should have played them. Baxter has guile but not much skill, Dunning is just at sea in an international front row. Cannon looks a spent force – you were dead right about his hands - so the Islander should have come on much earlier. I think I recall hearing that Freier is injured?

There is no doubt by the way that Gregan’s nounce kept the Wallabies in the hunt – it was good call to keep him despite the pressure.

Incidentally Roe wore six but played eight a lot. Pitbull and George were twin ferrets as per usual.

The Stade Francais did something to help develop rugby, or at least make it more popular, around Paris.

Thanks LDiCesare. I realised that SF had brought top class rugby to foreign terrority and on that basis they deserve acknowledgement. But as you know I have a problem with clubs that buy in squads rather than develop young talent – it’s why I rail on Sale and Saints and Gloucester so much.

The lad didn't play very well imo

Interesting. To a TV viewer it was obvious someone had head butted Moody – if this lad got cleared then one of his team mates is walking around a lucky man. It still doesn’t help for his chairman to imply there was no case to answer – Tigers did not cite, the ERC official did so why stupidly imply Moody faked it?

Ibanez is now with Wasps – which perhaps explains his rise back to contention?

Much better than civ3 imo. At the very least, religion adds more than culture added to civ2

Thanks for this also – I’m only about five hours in to the game all told (including tutorial) but thus far it has been a much better experience than Civ 3.

In fact, one of the Five Live commentators suggested that combining England's forward strength with the Wallabies' capacity for maximising opportunities would produce a pretty good team.

That’s a fair comment Finbar. England were rusty and looked it – way too many errors. The game should have been dead by half time.

Truly ridiculous missed tackles (by both centres) allowed the Aussie try from a very deep starting position. Still there was probably a case for a penalty try when Moody got sin binned so swings and roundabouts I guess. Personally I would also have awarded a penalty try when Dunning fell over feigning injury seconds after Baxters sin binning.

Did you catch that Charlie Hodgson made not one but two try saving tackles? He has improved in the last year – but I’m still not convinced by him.

Ireland next up for the Wallabies as you say – that is an intriguing fixture as I can confirm that the Irish were awfully disappointing against NZ. However they can scrum so who knows?

I'm guessing from the scoreline that it may be a somewhat frazzled (albeit relieved) CoT that next puts in an appearance ...

Tricky how Journalists sometimes leave out small parts like the WRU having no choice. I was also critical of them until I realised the clubs had called the players back.

Wales were, um, poor against Fiji to say the least. I think a walloping from the Boks could now set Welsh rugby back a decade. They got too confident too quickly – it was a well won Slam but it was done against sides not playing well at all. Wales have never been as good as they have started to convince themselves these last eight months. The injuries certainly don’t help – but they are not the only problems by any means.

Krige was with Saints – he left in may half way through his contract. The sacking of his mate Solomons last season made his mind up I think. Flavell as previously mentioned is going back to Blues – god help you.

Kaplan is bizarrely pedantic – but definitely a Bok.

Still with these tackles i think you need to be harsh on the players that do them

Under the revised law if you lift a player off his feet you are responsible for safely putting him down. Nonu will not be harshly punished I suspect as it looked more dumb than deliberate – but if there is a repeat on Saturday the book might well be thrown. The authorities treat violence on sports fields differently to anywhere else only because the organising bodies promise to police it internally. If the IRB keeps wimping out on punishing dangerous play then it might draw unwelcome attention. We don’t want a situation where the CPS has an officer at Twickenham monitoring play!

You mean those gleeful boasting types on the BBC rugby forum were deluding themselves? I'm shocked.

The expert comments chap on Five Live thought they'd have to improve by 50% to have a show against the ABs.

They were – but then that board has descended into a slugfest between deluded welsh and deluded Englishmen in turn – and NO I do not post there before you ask!
The 50% point is again entirely reasonable. The same performance again would draw a huge walloping from the ABs. I hope we win, I’ll settle for respectability.

Robinson sees last Saturday as vindication of his great leadership. Twit.

He has to take some responsibility I guess but then so do the selectors.

And the ARU who refused him his scrum academy in 2003 (he says).

Kelvin Deaker helmed Scotland-Argentina!!!

That's the point. Possession is meaningless unless you capitalise on it. Didn't England have 70% on the weekend?

They did until four minutes to go – then they never saw the ball again as the Wallabies launched a flurry (a great defensive workout for the boys it was too).

Never even hurt? I doubt that he invented the pins and needles. If he's not good enough, that's another matter.

Devils advocate stuff Finbar. Aussie prop is sin binned. In the very next play under the Wallaby posts the other prop goes down like a sack of spuds and stays there. Voila uncontested scrums right until the last minute of the game at a time when the Aussies are truly under huge pressure in that area.

Said prop passes all exams and scans with flying colours that same evening.

Let me just say I am suspicious as to the genuine nature of his injury – and at the same time glad he was not really hurt of course. Perhaps I am being very unfair – but it smacks of cunning Eddie to me.

[finbar]

Mrs finbar hears me typing furiously from the other room and thinks I'm working on the book! Every time she comes into the room, I hide Firefox and tell her I am.

Originally posted by Havak
On the issue of Rogers I will take your word – I thought he faded out the game in the second half – but then he saw very little ball it has to be said.

You'll just have to take my word. He's probably not going to produce it as much in the traffic at 10. And I don't think he's a born 10 anyway. It's his quick brain and hands that let him get away with the position. As a tactician, he's not in Larkham's class.

McMeniman might make it I think. He messed up one restart spectacularly – and struggled in the line out and scrum – but his work rate never dropped and he was certainly more visible than Sharpe (whom the commentator insisted had done well in Marseille?). Perhaps still lacks the necessary bulk right now.

Very young, nil experience. I saw a bit of him in S12 and liked his mobility and application. And he has a brain. Sharpe just doesn't seem to take the next step. I think he lacks a bit of mongrel, too.

They did, it did. Good player. Johansson made a cameo late on I think – solid lad.

Mitchell has a big future. Funnily enough, his sheer versatility - he can play, and has played, everywhere in the back line - has held him back. He's been cast as a spare parts player. I would have Johansson in the centres in place of Turinui, who is yet to prove he's a Test player. Wonderful S12 player, but he's rarely shown it at Test level.

He should have played them. Baxter has guile but not much skill,

And simply isn't strong enough. I notice that he was carded for doing exactly what Bill Young made a career out of doing - boring in to thwart the oppo's hit.

BTW, if Sheridan is so good, where has he been all this time?

Cannon looks a spent force – you were dead right about his hands - so the Islander should have come on much earlier. I think I recall hearing that Freier is injured?

I thought Cannon was showing worn signs in S12. Freir did his groin in France before the Barbs game, but I think the Islander - as you call him - will overtake him anyway. Yet another talented kid who hasn't played S12. Eddie says he doesn't want to burn too many of them too soon, but I think -v- the Paddys - without maligning the Paddys in any way - is a different proposition to -v- England at Twickers.

Did you catch that Charlie Hodgson made not one but two try saving tackles? He has improved in the last year – but I’m still not convinced by him.

The Five Live chaps were loud in their praise. Interestingly, aside from their (probably justified) s******ing at the Australian scrum, the commentary was pretty honest. None of them were carried away with the win.

Ireland next up for the Wallabies as you say – that is an intriguing fixture as I can confirm that the Irish were awfully disappointing against NZ. However they can scrum so who knows?

Yes, but without the power of the England lot. I reckon Eddie should go for it.

Let me just say I am suspicious as to the genuine nature of his injury – and at the same time glad he was not really hurt of course. Perhaps I am being very unfair – but it smacks of cunning Eddie to me.

There were, if I recall, about ten minutes to go. If it had happened earlier, I could be tempted to agree.

[Andydog]

NZ vs Poms

Afternoon chaps.

Soo... this is the game for the Slam. Apologies to Scotland, land of my ancestors, but that sorry lot have about as much chance of making history in 10 days time as Eddie Jones has of naming his autobiography "We did it up front!"

Are England in with a shot, or should we flick channels and watch the Convicts endeavour to salvage at least a smidgen of pride?

I don't think they have much chance unless pommy forwards absolutely pound the kiwi forwards. It'll be all up to the 8 fatties wearing white on how the game goes. No pressure fellas!

[child of Thor]

Re: NZ vs Poms

Originally posted by Andydog
Afternoon chaps.

Soo... this is the game for the Slam. Apologies to Scotland, land of my ancestors, but that sorry lot have about as much chance of making history in 10 days time as Eddie Jones has of naming his autobiography "We did it up front!"

Are England in with a shot, or should we flick channels and watch the Convicts endeavour to salvage at least a smidgen of pride?

I don't think they have much chance unless pommy forwards absolutely pound the kiwi forwards. It'll be all up to the 8 fatties wearing white on how the game goes. No pressure fellas!

I agree! add that they will then need to kep it in the close for the full 80+mins and they may have a chance!

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by finbar
Mrs finbar hears me typing furiously from the other room and thinks I'm working on the book! Every time she comes into the room, I hide Firefox and tell her I am.

What is your book about?

[ravagon]

The biggest hint he's given us to date is that he comes here for inspiration.
Some sort of fantasy novel then I imagine.


All Blacks meet the queen!

http://www.planet-rugby.com/Teams/New_Zealand/story_47408.shtml

Apparently the queen was impressed by the AB's squashing Wales a week and a half ago.

Furthermore prince William was suggesting that England would win it come Saturday.

Still a republican Havak?

[Havak]

Yep indeed.

Just because some inbred Greco-Germans like Rugby too why should I doff my cap to them?

Loved the bit about who Kelleher is dating though - and surpised Special Branch let Ali Williams anywhere near the Prince given his disciplinary record.

So whats up with your coach then? Gone mental? He seems unable to tell the difference between Paparazzi prats lurking in bushes and RFU guys in Blazers.

[ravagon]

Mmmm. Paparazzi in camo gear who claim to be from Reuters, then do a runner upon further questioning, then are disavowed by Reuters?

Tis only paranoia if they really aren't out to get you.


The prats probably even spoke with English accents!!
Deceit! Treachery!

(Yes it has been a dull day at work. Thanks for asking. )