Rugby - Hands Off White!

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Originally posted by Havak
And for all that energetic and largely accurate defence the reality is that this is not as good an Australian side as five years ago and that it is not currently playing well.

Possibly on the first count, certainly on the second. I'm hamstrung by only listening rather than watching so I can't tell what the problem is with people like Hayden. Whether he's simply out of form or whether his time is up.

But I'm not sure what all the sudden fuss is about reverse swing. It's been around for years and the Australians have faced some masters of it without this sort of apparent fragility. Maybe it's just a symptom of the wider problem.

They may return to form at trent bridge but who knows? I think you over rate the bowling – McGrath has been excellent, as has Warne. But the support bowling has been poor (one innings from Lee aside) – poorer than Englands certainly.

Again, I can only go on what I hear in the broadcasts, but Lee has been better than that. The problem has been the third seamer. Gillespie and Kasprowicz have been fruit for the sideboard. The pity is that Gillespie seems, finally, to have succumbed to his endless toll of injuries. He has lost the zip. Unfortunately, he was showing signs of it last summer in Australia. More notice should have been taken. Kasprowicz, too, has been a major flop. He matured late, returning to Test level because he developed consistency. He's a bona fide seamer in the English tradition and should suit those conditions but he seems to have reverted to his old inaccuracy and inconsistency. Presumably Shaun Tait will be given his chance, but he's played about two hours of cricket in six months.

And if we have to talk about gifts there were enough dropped catches and missed throws that Australia should have lost by tea on the final day.

Well, if you're going to introduce logic!

I’m not convinced you can write off good innings saying it was because the Aussies dropped catches – that is almost a universal truth after all? And bowling someone with a ‘no ball’ is a ‘no ball’ and not a wicket.

I'm not saying it wasn't a good innings. He went on regardless of the chances. I was putting the innings into context. Anyway, the point is, it will have given him confidence.

What Hysteria?

Listening to the match, the crowd was - dare I say it? - s*****-like.

Did we touch on the fact that whilst your boys claiming five nil slams (thanks Glen – mind that ankle now son shine) might be seen as realistic in a success-glutted Oz it is simply seen as uber-arrogant here and turns everyone strongly against them? Perhaps this is their motivational tactic?

True. In the same way that Mr Hoggard motivated the Australians prior to the first Test.

Plus everyone else wants the Aussies to lose at cricket – you occupy the role in cricket that England do in rugby – others love to see you fail.

And you were doing so well, but one stinky bait too many! These days, we feel sorry for the fifth- or sixth-ranked rugby team in the world and cross our fingers for a win.

And when that rights holder has expressed disappointment with the viewing figures things tend to change?

Not sure what you mean. That, if viewing figures are down, the rights holder might want a restructure? More likely that they will just offer less next time.

Though god knows how they expected huge audiences from the combined pops of the three countries involved. Perhaps they honestly thought that 8am and 10am kick offs would find an NH audience as well (note: UK bars currently need a special licence for this time – but that changes in November)?

That's one of the fundamental difficulties - time-zones. It's already awkward enough between SA and Oz - around eight hours. Add Argentina to the equation and what do you get? From memory, in the Oz winter, the Americas are between 14 and 17 hours behind the east coast of Oz.

He has also offered his resignation I see. Was he serious?

He didn't really. He pretty much said he would stand aside if asked. Standard response. He's been fairly safe till recently. He hasn't had much competition for the job. Someone who is looking like an alternative is Ewen McKenzie of the Waratahs, one of the last Wallaby props with claims to some class. Thus far, he has improved the Waratahs where many others - including R Dwyer - failed. If the Waratahs continue to be a force, McKenzie could have some claims for the top job. Assuming he could make the transition to Test level.

The interesting vein that keeps surfacing in the Eddie saga is the turnover of support coaches. Eddie's an utter obsessive who seems to be incredibly tough on and demanding of his support. The batch before this current lot lasted a total of about a month. I don't think it's a case of wanting yes men, more a case of paying out on them if their area of responsibility has - in Eddie's opinion - fallen short. The lot prior to the incumbents couldn't hack it. And I don't think it amounts to Eddie blaming others rather than taking the blame himself. I suspect he just applies too much pressure.

I see Flatley has made it.

Yes, but Gerard is out. Looks like Rogers or Rathbone, both back from injury, with no game time between them for eons.

Wasn’t he a great referee last weekend by the way – star ref of the tournament so far without a doubt? There is just something wonderful about seeing Wallabies and Kiwis b******** in a Somerset accent.

I can't even listen to the matches let alone see them!

[Caligastia]

When did this turn into a cricket thread?

A couple of comments on the NZ/Oz game...I thought "spreaders" had a decent game except for a couple of bad calls against NZ early on. In fact, it was only his bad calls that kept the Wallabies in the game. The ABs would have pulled ahead 7-6 if he hadn't pulled them back from a sure try under the posts for an imagined forward pass.

Dunno if I'll get to see the next game (Oz v SA) or not as my wife is about ready to pop our baby out (due date is 24th).

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Originally posted by Caligastia
When did this turn into a cricket thread?

The minute Havak got it into his head that his cricket team could even vaguely compete with the Australians.

[Caligastia]

Ah...it's that ephemeral English optimism we all know and love.

[finbar]

East Midlands variety.

[Havak]

Well it's not like I am claiming England are better than Australia is it. They are of course - I'm just not claiming it.

I think even the lowly England rugby side could beat the Wallabies right now as well.

Just haven't had time to reply properly today Finbar - will do so when I can. Certainly planning on picking up the ranking dig at some point.

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Okay, I'll allow you the extra thinking time.

England beat the Wallabies at the moment? Nuh. They're not travelling that badly.

Oh, and just as well you're not a Kiwi or you'd be trumpeting your cricket team's thumping yesterday of, um, Rhodesia.

[Havak]

It's only six years since the Kiwis beat England in England at cricket.

Still insanely busy sadly - and not in again until Tuesday. Will have to catch up then. In the meantime Finbar pop to the BBC Sport site and see who VD says should take over coaching England right away.

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I saw. First intelligent thought he's had in his life. Presumably someone else put it into his head.

[Havak]

You chaps will never be swapping Xmas cards that is for sure.

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Oh well, another loss. Sounds (or reads) like a better effort under the ridiculous injury-list circumstances. With no confirmed backline until the day of the match, and Flatley pulling out after the warm up, causing another re-jig, I doubt that there was a lot of group backline strategy on the paddock. And now Vickerman and Lyons look like missing next weekend, and Giteau is doubtful, too. Where will it all end?

Still, I've been cheering myself by reading about the British Army's humiliating - okay, tragic - retreat from Kabul in January 1842. The current England rugby coach wouldn't have been out of place planning and carrying out the 1839 invasion of Afghanistan.

Why am I trawling through Britain's great military blunders? They're an entertaining sidelight on my journey through James (later Jan) Morris' wonderfully written British Empire trilogy, an absorbing examination of the British Empire from its earliest days to its ultimate demise. Gee, he (later she) can write. So atmospheric that I can see and hear Havak atop an elephant crossing the Indus.

[Havak]

I shall look those up. There are some howlers. Do the books cover the (even) darker aftermaths of some of those military reverses?

But lets not let the Wallabies off the hook shall we.
Ravaged by injuries, losing lots of games very narrowly (apart from being thumped by the ABs), all sounds VERY familiar to be honest. Welcome to the club!

Four defeats in a row matches the record of consecutive losses England set after the third game in the 6N. Lose to the ABs next time out and you take the record a step further than we have been able to. Five defeats in a row? If the rankings are based on the same logic that saw England tumble then the Wallabies should say hello to us as they pass us on their way down.

Only kidding - Eddie's saving grace is he didn't have the two huge thumpings by the ABs that really set England off downhill (though he may have one soon?) - all the other games England lost were by 1-3 points but the rankings are merciless things.

[finbar]

It's worthwhile looking up that Afghan campaign. It's a tragic tale of leadership arrogance, incompetence and ignorance. Outwitted, betrayed, and, ultimately, destroyed by the Afghanis. Only one man - out of a total of 16,500 troops, support, camp followers and families - made it the 90 miles from Kabul back to the nearest British garrison. The key figure was the then GG of India, a Lord Auckland. The occupation of Afghanistan was all his idea in the first place and he ordered it against all advice. Interestingly, Wellington, by that time, I think, an MP, forecast that the initial victory would be the easy part. The aftermath would be the hard part. And he was right. And shades of a very recent invasion of a Middle Eastern country.

I found two thirds of the Morris trilogy in the library here at the house. I read the middle book (Pax Brittanica) first, without realising the first book (Heaven's Command) was also here. This campaign features in the first book. I think I'll have to find the third book (Farewell The Trumpets) on Amazon.

He (later she) doesn't focus on the military. It only features when relevant and in the context of which aspect of the Empire he (later she) is examining at the time. Though the Navy features prominently, because it was the Navy's dominance of the world's oceans that facilitated the spread of the Empire.

Anyway. The Wallabies might cop a thumping this week, who knows? They probably should have been thumped by the ABs first time around. Apparently the ABs squandered chances. Frankly, these losses don't bother me a lot, apart from the fact that many of the problems can be attributed to the under-performing front row. Alec Evans, legendary forwards coach of earlier years, says it's about time Australia took scrummaging seriously and invested in the specialised development of front rowers. He's probably right. It's never been an art here. And if, at best, you're constantly struggling to be competitive, it puts the pressure on elsewhere. That aside, at least the injury toll gives younger players an opportunity, even if they're not yet, apparently, ready. They can only learn. And, frankly, I don't think it's all Eddie's fault at the moment, as the local critics have it. I don't think any other coach would do any better under the current circumstances.

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The extended Wallaby squad for this weekend:

Adam Ashley-Cooper, Al Baxter, Brendon Cannon, Mark Chisholm, Matt Dunning, Rocky Elsom, Scott Fava, David Fitter, Elton Flatley, Mark Gerrard, Matt Giteau, George Gregan (capt), Matt Henjak, Lloyd Johansson, Alex Kanaar, Lachlan MacKay, Drew Mitchell, Stephen Moore, Clyde Rathbone, John Roe, Mat Rogers, Nathan Sharpe, George Smith, Lote Tuqiri, Morgan Turinui, Phil Waugh, Chris Whitaker, Bill Young.

There are some names in there even I know little about! Flatley has been named subject to yet another clearance from his head doctor. If he's ruled out, Lachlan MacKay will probably take over #10. Talented, ex-U21 skipper, groomed by the Waratahs, just signed with Perth. Big and strong for a #10, good hands, takes on the defence. Just back from injury himself, so he won't have played since S12 finished. I've never seen Johansson play, I've seen Kanaar play once, both are very young. David Fitter is a giant young prop plucked from club rugby. Scott Fava is an experienced #8, former Brumbie, now with Perth, very mobile, and should have had a chance before now. Adam Ashley-Cooper is the Larkham look-alike from the Brumbies. The Brumbies' injury toll this season saw him thrown into the deep end with nil experience. He can play full back, wing and #10. He has real potential. He's also a nephew of Graeme Bond, who left the Brumbies for the NH a couple of years ago.

[Caligastia]

Well, it looks like the ABs will have to win their next two games if they want to win the Tri-nations. As much as it pained me I was actually hoping for Australia to win that last one - just so they would stop the Boks from getting more points and therefore improve NZ's chances. Both games are on home turf though, so their chances are still decent.