Rugby - Hands Off White!

[Havak]

Perhaps a silly (if partially accurate) quote from Clive - but surely we will know more about the gulf when NZ tour here after the domestic NPC has finished at a time when some of our players will still be relatively fresh for the season?

The lads on the Lions tour were not bad players and it would be stupid for anyone to think so -- but as Mr O'Connell said "none of us brought our A game with us". That seems a fatal flaw when playing a team as cohesive as the ABs were - and is a more realistic view than Clive the Ostriche holds.

All AB fans should be enjoying a great series win - but is hasn't secured the Webb Ellis as that will be constested in France in the fall of 2007 and the ABs will have to maintain close to this standard of play to win it I suspect.

The Lions incidentally normally lose one or two provincial games in NZ - and didn't this time. My own thought on that is that the dirt trackers were led by a better coach.

[finbar]

Clive should shut up and quit while he's behind. He digs himself deeper into the hole the more he says. Presumably he is going to the s***** team? Clive's and the s***** team's statements seem a bit more vague than they were.

I think the midweek coach probably was better at his job than Clive. OTOH, he wasn't facing anything like the same opposition and his players were, after all, picked for a Lions tour.

[Havak]

The problem with rampant egomania is it doesn't allow for the possibility of shutting up at any point.

He will go to the s***** side - it's all politics at the moment as he is being brought in alongside a proven s***** coach and that is proving tricky.

I recommend you saunter over to the BBC sport site - various taffs and that 'Aussie in taffs clothing' have launched a few wild claims about their NZ fixture in November.

[Havak]

Jeff Probyn, Legendary England prop and a man who worked briefly under Clive inn 1997 and has long been on record as disliking him:

"It was all about winning the Tests. If we'd won, Clive would be telling everybody what a great coach he is. He took the credit for England's World Cup success while ignoring all the disappointing performances he presided over in the years before that - the 1999 World Cup failure, all the Grand Slam misses. He then releases a book called 'Winning' when the reality is that as a coach he has spent more time losing. There's no getting away from the fact he played a part in winning the World Cup but this Lions series has brought public perception of Clive's ability closer to the reality understood by those who know him. The public's perception of what he contributed to the 2003 World Cup success has been very different to the reality."

And on Campbell:

"The fact Campbell gave a team talk to the players is ludicrous and insulting beyond belief. What the hell does he know about playing rugby at any level, let alone at Test level?"

And finally a word of warning:

"Harry Redknapp will have to be a very good football manager if he is going to deal with Clive week in, week out."

I think you have a soul mate Finbar?!

I'm just sorry Clive has left the sport - every test he helmed after Martin retired just kept on adding to the latters legend (I'll keep saying it because it is patently true!).

[finbar]

Originally posted by Havak
Jeff Probyn, Legendary England prop and a man who worked briefly under Clive inn 1997 and has long been on record as disliking him:

"It was all about winning the Tests. If we'd won, Clive would be telling everybody what a great coach he is. He took the credit for England's World Cup success while ignoring all the disappointing performances he presided over in the years before that - the 1999 World Cup failure, all the Grand Slam misses. He then releases a book called 'Winning' when the reality is that as a coach he has spent more time losing. There's no getting away from the fact he played a part in winning the World Cup but this Lions series has brought public perception of Clive's ability closer to the reality understood by those who know him. The public's perception of what he contributed to the 2003 World Cup success has been very different to the reality."

And on Campbell:

"The fact Campbell gave a team talk to the players is ludicrous and insulting beyond belief. What the hell does he know about playing rugby at any level, let alone at Test level?"

And finally a word of warning:

"Harry Redknapp will have to be a very good football manager if he is going to deal with Clive week in, week out."

I think you have a soul mate Finbar?!

Yes, I read all that yesterday. And regardless of any history between Probyn and Clive, there's much truth in what he says.

I'm just sorry Clive has left the sport - every test he helmed after Martin retired just kept on adding to the latters legend (I'll keep saying it because it is patently true!).

I've said it before and I'll say it again - J**** made Clive's reputation. Clive's record since J****'s retirement isn't coincidence.

I read an interesting observation somewhere recently. One of the hallmarks of Clive's coaching was a largely disfunctional backline. Odd days out aside, probably in some of the 6 Nations matches, I think it's right. Even when England beat Australia those three or four times in a row, I remember observing that the backs and forwards seemed unconnected.

[Havak]

Five times in a row I believe.

There is definitely a case for that observation - however I would have to counter that by saying that Wales and France do not hold the record for the number of tries in a 6N campaign. That honour goes to Clive's Jonno led troops (in 2003 I believe).

The problem was the backline could slaughter weak opponents (like Italy, Scotland and Wales) but seldom clicked properly against bigger fish. I guess the AB game of November 2002 is one where they did earn their stripes.

I must mention by the way that I am not too happy that a certain cricket side seems to be hitting form at just the wrong time!

[finbar]

Originally posted by Havak
Five times in a row I believe.

Make the most of the memory.

There is definitely a case for that observation - however I would have to counter that by saying that Wales and France do not hold the record for the number of tries in a 6N campaign. That honour goes to Clive's Jonno led troops (in 2003 I believe).

The problem was the backline could slaughter weak opponents (like Italy, Scotland and Wales) but seldom clicked properly against bigger fish.

As I suspected. So the backline problem will remain a hallmark of his coaching.

I must mention by the way that I am not too happy that a certain cricket side seems to be hitting form at just the wrong time!

Yes, well, our bowlers seemed to sort out the England top order in the pyjama version of the game. And Ponting and Gilchrist finally found some form. Hayden is still out of touch and Michael Clark has barely had a hit. We'll see how it all transfers into the real form of the game. I still think much will depend on the accuracy of the England quicks. McGrath's four straight maidens in the pyjama final is the sort of thing I mean. The Australians one-to-seven (with Gilchrist at seven ) will murder anything vaguely loose. I also don't think - Flintoff aside - the England bastmen are equipped to do the same. Interesting quandry for the England selectors - to pick Pietersen or not. There's a hell of a difference between pyjama cricket and real cricket.

[child of Thor]

Thought Havak might like this

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/international/4646843.stm

So it takes an aussie to be confident about Wales chances against NZ

To be fair i'm quietly opptomistic about the boyo's chances. At the very least i expect a more cohesive game out of them, and maybe in the case of a loss, much less points in it.

[finbar]

Originally posted by child of Thor
Thought Havak might like this

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/international/4646843.stm

So it takes an aussie to be confident about Wales chances against NZ

Havak drew attention to it the other day. I think he - Cockbain, not Havak - is dreaming. Which isn't to say that Havak doesn't dream. He mentioned England's five straight wins over Australia the other day. I think it's called dreaming of better days.

To be fair i'm quietly opptomistic about the boyo's chances. At the very least i expect a more cohesive game out of them, and maybe in the case of a loss, much less points in it.

I'm sure Wales will be more cohesive than the Lions. The Battersea Dogs' Home XV would have been more cohesive than the Lions. And the Labrador/Poodle cross that coached them would have made a more positive contribution to the team's effort than Clive made to the Lions'. As long as the Dogs' Home XV didn't employ a flea-bitten, mangey mongrel as Media Advisor/Spin Doctor as Clive did.

[child of Thor]

Originally posted by finbar

edit.....

. As long as the Dogs' Home XV didn't employ a flea-bitten, mangey mongrel as Media Advisor/Spin Doctor as Clive did.

And on that most true note:

from here: bbc link

'Probyn also attacked the decision to take former Labour spin doctor Alistair Campbell to New Zealand as the Lions' media officer.

"The Campbell situation was a disaster and was always going to be a disaster," said Probyn.

"The fact Campbell gave a team talk to the players is ludicrous and insulting beyond belief.

"What the hell does he know about playing rugby at any level, let alone at Test level?"

Woodward is expected to join Southampton Football Club next month, prompting Probyn to issue Saints boss Harry Redknapp with a word of warning.

"Harry Redknapp will have to be a very good football manager if he is going to deal with Clive week in, week out," he said.'

Just having him(A.Campbell) around probably doomed the tour from the start

EDIT: Sorry I see i'm just digging up the ground Havak already covered. Still its good enough to post twice i think

As for NZ vs Wales - i hope NZ dont go there too confident due to the Lions hamering. This Welsh team at home might just surprise them if they do.

[Havak]

You know I get the feeling that someone hasn't read back in the thread at all.

The boyos have a chance against NZ - but not a very good one to be honest. The pocket rocket has been worked out totally by the ABs unlike last time he faced them and was an unknown.

Dreaming of better days indeed - the BOD Umaga showdown in November for starters not to mention England starting that new winning run against the Aussies and giving the ABs pause for thought...I'm assuming Turnip will be sacked before the autumn of course.

Pietersen for Thorpe Finbar - the old warrior loses his last crack at his soon to be employers perhaps?

[child of Thor]

For not reading back i apologise

For the cricket, i think its probably good to bring in the upcoming players - part of englands problem in the past seemed to be the over-reliance on the regular old boys, even when form was against them. Fortune favours the brave?

What do you make of the TV adds they've been running here for this test. My firt reaction on seeing them was "well i hope they give it a good go" - thinking of a Lions type embaresment(which it wont be now) made me uncomfortable with the cocky note of the ads

Who are England lining up to play between the Lions and the next world cup?(well i mean this autumn atleast)

I see Wales have the rather tall mountain of NZ, Australia, SouthAfrica and the not so tall Fiji(but i think we just like the way Fiji play - it has a touch of the old-style welsh about it; added with huge polyneisian hits).
If anything it will prove where Wales really sit in the world, not so much where we feel we sit

[Havak]

Oh I am just keeping my fingers crossed we blood the Aussie's noses in the cricket to be honest. I think their current skipper is the most arrogant in a long time (and that is saying something alongside the likes of Waugh) so he could do with a dose of the humbles. Finbar may disagree.

England have a lighter Autumn program - Australia, New Zealand and Samoa in that order.

Don't get me wrong as I would love to see Wales turnover the ABs, I just think it is unlikely.

[Caligastia]

You support Wales over NZ? I thought you were anti-Welsh.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Caligastia
You support Wales over NZ? I thought you were anti-Welsh.

He supports anyone north of the equator in any contest with anyone from south of the equator. He was a front rower, y'see.