Rugby - Hands Off White!

[Havak]

I agree with you entirely Ravagon – I expect an improvement but I think a test win is beyond them now. I would love to be proved wrong – and if I am will join Andydog in having tears in my eyes.

Clive can be a **** as we all know – but he isn’t all the time. In fact most of the time he is quite rational.

The Auckland game was actually a great game – the effort either side was immense. On balance the better side just about sneaked it. Big Joe was well marshalled all game. Had Auckland played a fly half who could hold the ball or kick it from hand they would have done better – the poor lad had a howler. The Auckland coach, Pat Lam, played up here for a long time with Saints then Newcastle and is fondly remembered by anyone who saw him play.

The tiresome place has to be good for something!

I still maintain I enjoyed my three weeks there – the only exception being any talk of any sport with Aussies males.

You can post outrageous rebuttals and scurry off home while I'm already planning dinner!

I felt it introduced an element of justice for yesterday morning.

Mrs finbar and I are now completely and totally wireless!

The ultra modern sitting alongside the traditional tranquillity of an Italian village. I must take up writing.

Is it? I didn't know that.

Apparently so. The proof of the pudding is in what the citing official said about the brahmer of a punch that closed Kay’s eye as it boiled down to “no further action because it was retaliation”. But more on this later…

As ugly as he is, he doesn't need to belt anyone. Looking at them would damage them enough.

There is a photo in the ABC bar at Welford Road of a fresh faced young thing with normal ears. You would not recognise it as the same man.

So the foul play? Rowntree was cleared by the panel and rightly so as it just appeared to be a bit of minor wrestling with the oppo lock. It is impossible to see on the TV footage the punch that Ben Kay apparently threw ‘first’. All his right arm appears to be doing from the broadcast footage is trying to grab the ball that Tuitupou is running away with (note the Lions have just been awarded a penalty). At this ‘extreme provocation’ Tuitupou punches Kay full on in the face. In front of the ref and clearly on camera. So one would have to say on balance Finbar that Walsh, who reversed the penalty as a bizarre reward for this punch, had one of his usual poor games. So poor in fact that as Kay was being treated for a closed eye he tried to drag him 15 metres to hear his pompous reversal decision – the Lions trainer told him to **** *** as politely as possible.

Tuitupou got a six week ban for the stamping. He had no defence really – his head was down as he did it so he knew exactly what he was doing. Interestingly it seems that the guy will miss no rugby at all because of it. Sound familiar?

Cueto had a strong game Finbar. The big criticism of him is he doesn’t work hard enough off the ball. But he is strong, fast and improving all the time. Robinson and Williams were dire but I have a sinking feeling the former will be named tomorrow.

Wilkinson and Henson are both out with ‘stingers’. I am sure the former is true but the latter is clearly a face saving excuse as he was utter crap last week and had to be dropped. I think poor Jonny needs to think of leaving the game – this cycle of injury will cripple him very young if he is not careful.

My preferred team?

Jenkins, Thompson, Sheridan, O’Connell, Shaw, Moody, Cozza, Easterby, Cusiter/Dawson (Dawson had a great game against Auckland), Hodgson (if fit), Murphy, D’Arcy, Smith, Cueto and Lewsey.

Bench: Wiggy/Whitey, R. Jones/Backy, S Jones, Dawse/Cus, Bulloch, O’Callaghan and probably Horgan.

And I would never have picked this line up before the tour. No chance of it being even close to this of course. Please let him play Smith though – the boy represents the way forward for England and facing Umaga will be simply great for him. You learn by playing the best after all (I’d also like to see him face big Stirling in November).

[Andydog]

Originally posted by Havak
It was not indicative of having been coached by Clive either - both were uber-arrogant people well before Clive coached England.

Well I don't buy that, and to be frank you're struggling with your rebuttal. It may be easier for you to blame Henry rather than accept the real reasons for losing that tour, but from what I've seen so far, Henry is quality. And the 01 tour was close - if that wallaby hadn't stolen that lineout throw in the final minutes of the third test..

Henry has led the All Blacks to a series win over the Lions and they have played some of the most exhilarating rugby seen for many years. He is combining brute strength up front with a dazzling backline - a blend that has allowed us to storm through the first two tests playing high-skilled rugby at extreme pace.

Henry said:
This is what we do in the Super 12, this is how we play the game. It's an athletic game and this is the ideal breeding ground to play this type of rugby

I've heard you and others on this forum poo-pooing the Super12. The fact is its great for developing athleticism and skill, and it is a style that Henry and Steve Hansen laid the foundations for when they were each in charge of Wales.

Speaking of Wales, Henry set the Welsh recovery in motion when he took over from Kevin Bowring in 1998, right after he lead Auckland to four successive national titles and the Blues to victory in the first two Super 12 tournaments.

Wales, who had been thumped 96-13 by South Africa in June 1998, halted England's grand slam bid in 1999, then beat the Springboks 29-19 in Cardiff, and then went on to win 10 straight games. The Welsh fans worshiped Henry.

He has recognised the AB's past deficiencies as being 'over drilled' - which discourages creativity and such things as 'plan Bs' when things go wrong (as per last few world cups). He is now encouraging creativity and vision back into his players using a variety of techniques and he is instilling great professionalism into our game.

So there are the facts – you can now see why I disagree with you when you say he is "a total dickhead"

[Andydog]

The NZ team: 1 Tony Woodcock 2 Keven Mealamu 3 Greg Somerville 4 Chris Jack 5 Ali Williams 6 Jerry Collins 7 Richie McCaw 8 Rodney So’oialo 9 Byron Kelleher 10 Leon MacDonald 11 Sitiveni Sivivatu 12 Tana Umaga (Captain) 13 Conrad Smith 14 Rico Gear 15 Mils Muliaina. Reserves: 16 Derren Witcombe 17 Campbell Johnstone 18 James Ryan 19 Sione Lauaki 20 Justin Marshall 21 Luke McAlister 22 Doug Howlett.

So Leon MacDonald slots in for the wonderboy at 1st 5. I'd say this is a Henry test to see what happens should Carter and Mauger get injured early on in a vital game. Leon is less risky than McAlister as he knows the backline and all its patterns.

No changes in the forward pack, their development together continues. And that pack seems to be improving with every game I might add. Where is that angry Frenchman btw? I've missed him telling us all how crap our forwards are all the time.

[child of Thor]

Originally posted by Andydog

edit....

Speaking of Wales, Henry set the Welsh recovery in motion when he took over from Kevin Bowring in 1998, right after he lead Auckland to four successive national titles and the Blues to victory in the first two Super 12 tournaments.

Wales, who had been thumped 96-13 by South Africa in June 1998, halted England's grand slam bid in 1999, then beat the Springboks 29-19 in Cardiff, and then went on to win 10 straight games. The Welsh fans worshiped Henry.

edit.........

indeed - i think we are seeing many more capable young players coming through the system in wales too, probably a legacy of the general all round professionalism having the NZ coaches in wales helped bring to the welsh game. Still these things take time, and i'm hoping the current form and crop of players coming out of wales carries on and improves.

Despite what Havak might say about wales - i think even a hardend pro-anglo would agree that having a stronger welsh side in the home compition is good for rugby, well i certainly feel it, and hope the english raise their game for the next six-nation encounter between us

Still on the recent performances NZ are now my no1 in the run up to the next world cup. If they can keep that killer instinct in all their games that is.

[Andydog]

I find myself supporting Wales in every 6 nation comp. I guess it's the affinity that them and us have with the flossies. If a Welshman ever tells you it was them that invented velcro gloves, it's a lie - the kiwis were using them from day the stuff was invented!

I agree the challenge for NZ now is to maintain this level of playing. The tri-nations will reveal all methinks.

[Havak]

Hold on there Child of Thor – I am happy enough to see a strong Welsh side in the tournament! I’m never going to be pleased at them beating England though am I?

England were immensely poor in Cardiff this year – and lost by one point when the orange one did a Jonny to us. Even with a coach I do not rate at all it is unlikely they will be so poor at Twickenham come 2006 so it should be game on next year.

Crikey the butchers bill is immense – Smith is one who is sadly ruled out injured for Saturday.

Well I don't buy that, and to be frank you're struggling with your rebuttal.

Tish and pish – come back to me after reading any of the 2001 players accounts of working with the guy. All you are doing here is recycling your own opinion that the guy is quality – and it is based on nothing except your watching three test wins that I can see? He’s a **** IMO, he has no man management skills. He will prove it. Smith and Hansen have man management skills and were not on the Lions 2001 tour. See any causal linkage there with the difference between Henry eras?

It’s your honeymoon right now after he came back from the UK realising he needed to improve NZ forward play. Other sides will catch up and he will fail to adapt I suspect.

Hell I still think Australia will probably win the tri-nations because Eddie is a real cunning little coach whom I do not ‘like’ but greatly ‘admire’.

Gatland is probably the man for the future for NZ – far superior as a coach to Henry IMO and battled forged at Wasps (and as much as I hate them they are a good club side to cut your teeth on).

I've heard you and others on this forum poo-pooing the Super12. The fact is its great for developing athleticism and skill, and it is a style that Henry and Steve Hansen laid the foundations for when they were each in charge of Wales.

Super 12 has faults, as does the English Premiership and Celtic league (though less of them IMO). Ignoring the fact isn’t helpful. And Wales do not play Super 12 rugby. Their improvement relies as much on superbly improved conditioning of their forwards (their fitness coach is Australian btw and was appointed by Hansen) and improvement in the set piece grind as it does on the running style. Three years ago the Welsh pack was dead on it’s feet after sixty minutes – but no longer. I would hazard that I have seen more Welsh national and club rugby in the last year than you have in a lifetime and it is nothing like the laissez faire S12 games I have also seen this year.

Wales have a solid pack – always have had. The really expansive game they are playing is less than 24 months old. Henry had nothing to do with it at all – Hansen introduced it. Based on your criteria above (Henry is great for winning three tests against France and the Lions) Mike Ruddock is clearly a better coach than either man. You are aware that both Henry and Hansen have appalling win-loss ratios with Wales? Ruddock is the man who came in and turned that around I am afraid.

The Welsh fans worshiped Henry.

Nonsense. He had a wonderful honeymoon period. He was hugely unpopular by the end. HUGELY unpopular. I heard calls for his head (literally) after the loss to Ireland in 2002. Hell I toured with the Lions in 2001 and the honeymoon was over by then – I KNOW what Scarlets and Blues and Ospreys fans said to me about the guy and it wasn’t hero worship!

I actually take huge issue with the idea Welsh fans ‘worshipped’ Henry. They (like you?) got a little carried away with him early on – but they were very glad when he got sacked in February 2002 I can assure you!

LMAO at Henry stopping England’s grand slam bid. A crap performance against a poor team cost them that – and it only then boiled down to Dayglo’s stupid decision on a penalty, a Tim Rodber missed tackle on Gibbs and Andre Watson having the helm.

Those ten wins? Well they didn’t actually start with that Bok game!!!!

Scotland (!) and Ireland both beat Wales before they sneaked a win against France in 99 – the sequence then was Italy, England (see above), Argentina (x2), South Africa, Canada, France (at home this time), Argentina again and then Japan (at home!). In October 99 Samoa ended their run in Cardiff then Australia whupped them at home too

France hammered Wales 36-3 in the opening game in Feb 2000. England hammered Wales 46-12 in March 2000 (Wales never beating them again, or even coming close, until 2005). In the rest of the Henry era there was another narrow win against France and one against Ireland. He never beat an SH big three opponent again. And had two record losses to Ireland, one to Argentina, a draw (!) with Scotland. He was sacked after Wales demolition by Ireland in February 2002 IIRC. After he went Hansen endured a torrid time of awful results.

So these foundations you talk about Mr Henry laying – I accuse you of being totally and utterly wrong on it. With Hansen you might have a point (he had no choice but to rebuild and rethink) – but Henry there is no way as the facts disagree with you!

So there are the facts – you can now see why I disagree with you when you say he is "a total dickhead"

You are on a high – and so you should be.

I didn’t see many facts to be honest – plenty of opinion and a smattering of hero worship but not too many facts.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Havak
Had Auckland played a fly half who could hold the ball or kick it from hand they would have done better – the poor lad had a howler.

I didn't see the Auckland line up, but I assume that's the guy the Blues brought in to replace Carlos during the S12 season (prior to his injury). I saw his first S12 game and some of his subsequent efforts. Pretty ordinary, particularly his passing - sloppy and looping - and his kicking from the hand.

I still maintain I enjoyed my three weeks there – the only exception being any talk of any sport with Aussies males.

Yes, well, we met an English couple the other night who have bought a five acre olive farm not far from us. They asked why we were here for two years - which, incidentally, might stretch to more - and I told them why I was here. He was puzzled. He said his firm has a Sydney branch and the Poms who go out there to work love the place. Why?, I asked. Because of the weather and easy-going attitude to life, he said. By this point, Mrs finbar, sensing I was about to unload on the sh*thole of a place, was stamping on my foot to shut me up. So I didn't get to tell him what lurks beneath the surface. And not far beneath. And has always been there, but has been prodded and stirred and exploited by the incumbent Prime Minister for his own cynical purposes.

The ultra modern sitting alongside the traditional tranquillity of an Italian village.

Precisely what we said yesterday after I had the system up and running. If only the Etruscans - who first settled this town - had had this technology, the Romans mightn't have swallowed them.

Cueto had a strong game Finbar. The big criticism of him is he doesn’t work hard enough off the ball.

I thought he was doing more of that as the 6 Nations went on. He seemed to be one of the few real triers with a plan.

Wilkinson and Henson are both out with ‘stingers’. I am sure the former is true but the latter is clearly a face saving excuse as he was utter crap last week and had to be dropped.

Then there was the mysterious "injury" that kept him out of the midweek match prior to the last Test. The rumors persist that he had cracked the sh*ts about missing the second Test and was walking out. Clive felt the need to deny the rumor anyway.

My preferred team?

As you say, no chance of it being selected. I'm not sure what Murphy has done wrong on this tour. He seems to have suffered for Clive's determination to pick Robinson regardless.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Andydog
The tri-nations will reveal all methinks.

Yes indeed. And the Wallabies will know more about where they stand after meeting the Boks this week. The Boks appear to have selected one of the largest packs since the Dinosaur XV took on the Pteradactyl XV in a prehistoric swamp in the East Midlands. (Havak, presumably, was there on his season ticket) And Jake White seems to have opened the bowling off his long run in the Silly Psychological Games Match by declaring that Bill Young wouldn't get a jersey in a Bok domestic 4th grade team. You're going to have to be a bit more subtle than that up against Eddie, Jake.

[child of Thor]

Henry was quite ready to leave wales when he did, the honey-moon was indeed well over.
From what i heard, his ability to brush past all the welsh cronyism at the outset(for which he was aplauded) turned around to bite him at the end. Welsh cronyism is a very pervasive+ingrained thing, in part a reflection of our strong tribal heritage.

Still i think that it needed an outsider to come in and tell the old boys some home truths - up until that point, even at the very top, rugby was still so much part of the social fabric in wales that it was hard to get rid of the drinking and all the comforts.

So from that point of view i think Henry did benifit welsh rugby, in that he set some much needed ground work to move us on from the woodenspoon champions
Still i think eveyone is happy with a welsh coach in place, and now everyone knows what it takes to compete with the more succesfull teams.

And no - i don't expect you to like it when us sheep lovers beat your england team.
Still as its become such a rare event, and it is the most important victory we can win; you shouldn't get too upset - grant us that one small crumb every now and then

[Havak]

Yes I saw that one.

Jake is not your problem - 'Saint Henry' will no doubt run rings around Eddie flying on his new found wings.

[Havak]

I got upset with how England performed more than anything.

Wales deserved to win the Slam as they were the best side in the tournament. I am sorry but the realist in me does have to point out I think it was the worst tournament and certainly the worst England side in a decade. This has to be used to put the quality of this Welsh side in perspective. It's promising, it's pretty good perhaps - but it's not world beating yet.

The re-organistion you describe was driven internally by the Welsh and was long over due. The Welsh Rugby Union Committee dwarfed those of all other nations added together as every club, whatever the size, had a rep on the committee itself IIRC? The union re-organised, provincialised and downsized the committee itself. As an employee Henry had nothing to do with driving that even if he publically made positive comments about it.

If one must recognise what he did do he did set the team onto a more Professional path. That said he left Hansen with a team that got walloped again and again in Steve's first year in charge. Thats a fact.

[LDiCesare]

Wales deserved to win the Slam as they were the best side in the tournament. I am sorry but the realist in me does have to point out I think it was the worst tournament and certainly the worst England side in a decade. This has to be used to put the quality of this Welsh side in perspective. It's promising, it's pretty good perhaps - but it's not world beating yet.

Indeed Wales was the best team and shows lots of promise as it's a team of many young players. But the touring performance of both the Brits and the French show that we are not up to the South Hemisphere level right now. Sure, the Lions managed to get too many players and to hurt some of them, but even if that's poor management, the gap with the ABs is too big not to reveal something. As for the French, they showed some promise but are rebuilding after the last World Cup.
We can only hope next year tournament will show better teams. England shouldn't have much problem improving, Italy actually have a good coach (Berbizier puts a stress on discipline and they need that), but Scotland currently looks beyond hope, as except for Cusiter they don't have the shadow of a class player among them.

[finbar]

Gee, the Lions look a 15% better team already without Robinson. A specialist full back now in place, two wingers with a bit of size and pace about them. Pity about Greenwood and Peel. It looks a better balanced team, even if Peel's well-established problems will compromise their opportunities and Greenwood isn't the player he was, which isn't saying much anyway. The ABs are now missing McCaw and McDonald and the #10 is a baby. This has to be the Lions' chance. Just a pity about Greenwood and Peel.

[Havak]

Yes I tend to agree. With Smith injured it had to be D'Arcy who has played himself into some semblance of form - Will certainly has not. The faith kept in Peel is interesting after Dawson had a great mid-week game (not that I like Dawson) and Cusiter has been solid all tour.

Brave of Clive to drop his very own League convert and all round favourite though.

What is hilarious to me is that there is no longer a Kiwi in the AB loose forwards. And perhaps there is just a slim shred of hope and early signs of Henry-itis in the move of the big blocking, badgering and bullying Samoan to openside? Frankly I would have put Hollah straight in there instead and I fully expect Moody to beat the Samoan at the art of the breakdown even though Lewis is no specialist seven either.

Incidentally Finbar Horse is banging the league drum elsewhere - go smack him down in your eloquent style please?

[Andydog]

Originally posted by Havak

Tish and pish – come back to me after reading any of the 2001 players accounts of working with the guy. All you are doing here is recycling your own opinion that the guy is quality – and it is based on nothing except your watching three test wins that I can see? He’s a **** IMO, he has no man management skills. He will prove it. Smith and Hansen have man management skills and were not on the Lions 2001 tour. See any causal linkage there with the difference between Henry eras?

Tosh and posh - so your reason for hating Henry is that you've read a few biographies that lead you to believe he has no man management skills. LMAO that you even recommended Johno's book telling me to look for what he DIDN'T write about Henry!

But I am interested to hear some examples of Henry's bad management from all these numerous biographies you've read.

Super 12 has faults, as does the English Premiership and Celtic league (though less of them IMO). Ignoring the fact isn’t helpful.

Not ignoring it and never said it didn't have faults. In fact the first thing Henry did on his return to NZ was to instruct all the Super12 coaches to sort out the forward play.

I actually take huge issue with the idea Welsh fans ‘worshipped’ Henry. They (like you?) got a little carried away with him early on – but they were very glad when he got sacked in February 2002 I can assure you!

For a while they did worship him, but like every other coach, when it's time to go of course the fans are going to be glad. Nothing unusual there!

I didn’t see many facts to be honest – plenty of opinion and a smattering of hero worship but not too many facts.

The facts were there and they were facts. You've dredged up a few other facts telling a different story. Everyone can use little bits of this and that to paint a picture. Whatever.

And I'm not worshiping Henry, just think your opinion of him appears to be pretty one eyed. At least I have provided an opinion as to why he fell out with players up north. You have provided nothing.

As I've said, Henry has done all the right things for the ABs so far, and the players like him. I'm sure he'll do wrong things too at some stage, like all coaches. And we all know how fickle the kiwi fans can be about coaches.. I'll start 'worshiping' Henry if he wins every game between now and the end of the world cup.

Interested to hear the examples of 'bad man management'.