Rugby - Hands Off White!

[Havak]

Wow. Is he locked up?

I'm not immune to the humour in that email - but watch your backs the next time the ABs moan about anything.

I'm not breaking my decision about extending the debate but having sojourned to a few rugby forums I would just like to extend my thanks to the Kiwi lads.

You have for the moment (and temporarliy I am sure) usurped the English as the rugby playing nation most reviled by the Celts. Congratulations boys - that really took some doing. No craic for you boys for the foreseeable future.

[Havak]

If he really did say that about the line out Finbar he is totally and utterly wrong. The Lions were totally outplayed in that set piece and also just about held in the scrum. The ball boys saw more possession on the day.

Byrne could not hit a barn door at two paces – and the Kiwis had clearly picked the calls (sometime this didn’t help them given Byrne’s throwing!).

I think it amounts to taking the initiative from them and smothering them. Plodders need not apply for the job.

It’s a very mobile pack he has gone for – loosies in particular. Although I share reservations about Easterby and I’m not sure Moody is 100% fit.

Shane Williams had to play. At least we (and all of Wales) will know the answer by Sunday. Robinson I find as bizarre as yourself – has done nothing to be there.

The centre combination looks - potentially - to have more potency

It’s much more physical. Thomas must not be written off as a 13 – he plays there a great deal (ask Tamerlin if he still breathes?).

Useful 10 yes – but two years ago he was world beating. He’s not the same lad as yet. It’s wishful thinking to hope he will click Saturday – right now Carter is streets ahead.

Kellaher is the guy who looks like a cut of beef with a head stuck on top isn't he? barrel chested chap.

Peel was one of the biggest disappointments last week. He stood up far better to Ellis (who is a badgering little sod) in the 6N than he did to Marshall. My heart says Cusiter should have got a shot – he’s smallish but feisty and he’ll stand his ground well.

Anyway, the AB back row is extremely potent. This lot will have to work their bums off.

Agree the Samoans are big powerful lads and the kiwi McCaw we know all about too. Moody is not over matched though (if fit) and Jones has hinted at real quality. It will be interesting.

Corry was not slow as such – although yes the pitbull Aussie combination has given him trouble in the past (and vice versa in certain phases!). His main contribution is as a ball carrier – great strength and a fantastic unloader in the tackle. He is on the bench covering both lock and loosie.

Williams is a strange choice on the bench – not powerful, artful or bulky enough for this job IMO.

Thompson is the prime gamble as you say. He adds power in the scrum and is a monster in the loose at times – but his throwing is toss a coin stuff.

[Andydog]

Originally posted by Havak
I'm not breaking my decision about extending the debate but having sojourned to a few rugby forums I would just like to extend my thanks to the Kiwi lads.

You have for the moment (and temporarily I am sure) usurped the English as the rugby playing nation most reviled by the Celts. Congratulations boys - that really took some doing. No craic for you boys for the foreseeable future.

I blame Woodenhead for this. His oversized ego is just out of control. Can anyone remember a sporting event that was this focused on the coach? Can anyone remember a coach so keen to be the centre of publicity?

Medieval Despots, politicians campaigning for election and rock group front men are meant to hog the limelight in the way Clive has done. Rugby coaches are meant to stay in the background and concentrate on helping their team. Perhaps if Clive had devoted less time to the political aspects of the tour, the Lions might not have had such a dreadful lineout last week.

The point I'm trying to get at is, Woodenhead seems intent on creating divisions rather than fostering relations. This tour should be a good thing but instead seems to be driving massive wedges.

Somebody shoot the bastard. Please.

[Havak]

I want to keep to my commitment not to dicsuss it further but I would commend you to go look at Eddie O'Sullivans comments on the BBC web site.

And it isn't Clive's fault that the Celts have turned on the Kiwis.

Eddie hits the nub of the matter for me and needless to say I think blame for driving wedges is far more evenly shared.

Btw the last Lions tour was heavily focused on a humourless publicity seeking egomaniac Lions coach as well. Easily as big a **** as Clive.

[Andydog]

I had read the article and dismissed it straight away as Umanga was told by the All Blacks management to keep mum on the issue until today.

I agree that this silence has protracted the debate somewhat, but stand by my point that Clive's continuing childlike attacks regarding that issue and others is creating the bulk of the divisions. You don't bring the NH and SH together by dragging your oppos character through the mud and by creating b!tch fights on the pitch.

[Havak]

He's being very unwise about the continued focus on it -thats about as much as I would like to say about Clive as I'll always be grateful to him for having the sense to make and leave Jonno as England skipper over his 'favoured son' Dayglo.

I suspect the very best way to build NH-NZ bridges is a joint tour against Australia - now that would be worth seeing.

All the Celtic coaches are having little pops today - I've added my emphasis to what Mike Ruddock said today.

"Please God we'll see more open rugby and a Welsh style of play... it's simple but effective. It's very difficult to break down these rugby league-style defences so... you must pass out of contact."

It's subtle - but a dig never the less.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Havak
If he really did say that about the line out Finbar he is totally and utterly wrong.

He said it. He actually said this:

"Those of you who understand the game should look at every single lineout and you may understand where the actual problems came from," said Woodward.

"Count the number of people. We had problems in the numbers we had compared to the numbers they had on our throw."

Then the Beer Gut added his enlightened tuppence worth:

England hooker Thompson said that he believes he has worked out how the All Blacks are getting the upper hand in the lineout.

He stated that when the Lions throw the ball in, New Zealand hooker Keven Mealamu moves very quickly from the front to a position inside the lineout.

That effectively gives New Zealand an extra lifting option.

So it had nothing at all to do with the crap throwing or calling, you see. You and the rest of the world who saw what happened were seeing things.

Although I share reservations about Easterby

My only reservation is that I've never heard of the bugger.

Kellaher is the guy who looks like a cut of beef with a head stuck on top isn't he? barrel chested chap.

That's him. If Peel couldn't handle Marshall, Kellaher will drive him insane. It's great fun watching Kellaher -v- Gregan. They genuinely don't like each other. Unlike Gregan -v- Marshall, where it's good competition, but they're close mates off the field. It sounds like Cusiter is better equipped to handle a pitbull like Kellaher.

Agree the Samoans are big powerful lads

:sly:

Corry was not slow as such – although yes the pitbull Aussie combination has given him trouble in the past (and vice versa in certain phases!). His main contribution is as a ball carrier – great strength and a fantastic unloader in the tackle. He is on the bench covering both lock and loosie.

So he has been sacrificed for, as you say, mobility.

Thompson is the prime gamble as you say. He adds power in the scrum and is a monster in the loose at times – but his throwing is toss a coin stuff.

Read his thoughts on the reason for the lineout problems (above) last week and you will be even more worried.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Andydog
I agree that this silence has protracted the debate somewhat, but stand by my point that Clive's continuing childlike attacks regarding that issue and others is creating the bulk of the divisions.

The odds on the Lions' M.O. being what it has been if the pr*ck Alistair Campbell weren't the Lions' media advisor?

[finbar]

And just for a moment of very light relief. This, from the Sydney Morning Herald's rugby website:

(Wendell) Sailor, whom Wallaby coach Eddie Jones yesterday conceded, "didn't have a magic feel for the game" ...

You master of understatement, Eddie, you.

[Caligastia]

Thanks for the congrats guys...the little fella is due on August 24th. Yep, he'll be born American, but he will definitely know the ways of his father's people.

As usual, when I want to talk about anything that has happened in the rugby the topic has already been done to death. I would like to say something about "that tackle" though. My co-worker had mentioned it to me before I watched the game (he reads sports news - knew better than to tell me the result though) and so I was looking out for a dirty tackle, but everything looked above board to me. Admittedly, the angle it was shown at blocked some of it out, but of what I did see I'm pretty confident that there was no harm intended. I reckon the poms who are complaining about it just have a bad case of sour grapes.

[ravagon]

Originally posted by Havak

Huh? Read this aloud to yourself – it’s ludicrous isn’t it?! As you truly saying that every player involved in a ruck knows instantly when a ball has shipped? Wherever they are in relation to the pill?? Whether the side in possession or not??

Just a thought but even if Brian arrived late (and I think this is wrong) why was a tackle then made after the ball had gone?

I just don’t get this argument at all to be honest.

T'isn't ludicrous at all. What did you do when you lost sight of the ball in a ruck and still had opposition players charging in? Stop for a tea break?
I guess I could understand this if you were an ex-Wasps player ...
Rucks generally end when the outermost players, having seen the ball disengage, stop rucking and break away. This pretty much lets the players originally in the middle know that it's over, and so on.
Having new players charge in, even when you can't see the ball, isn't exactly a good guideline for determining that the ball isn't there any more is it?
Hence one doesn't make this assumption and one continues rucking.
This seems so implicitly obvious to me that I'm having difficulty grasping where your point of contention comes from.
Players don't (yet) have live feeds going directly to their optical cortex that lets them know where everybody and everything is on the field at any particular instant - hence they go with common sense.

No. It’s called a spear tackle in the laws I believe (over to Finbar) and concerns driving a player head, shoulder or back first into the ground. Commentators have been using the word ‘dump’ and it has infiltrated my vocabularly.

This is, again, my point. A spear tackle it was not. Tana let him go once (IMO of course) he saw that the ball wasn't there anymore. Mealamu ended up almost underneath him and certainly wasn't driving him into the ground.
Ergo if it doesn't meet the criteria for a spear tackle then it isn't one. It doesn't therefore it isn't.

I’d settle for an apology – that he still has not made. After the series now if necessary so he is not ‘distracted’ by having to do so during it.

Incidentally you cannot really keep ignoring simple facts. The tackle was off the ball. It badly hurt the player tackled. Whether punished or not both players are certainly 'guilty' of badly hurting a fellow player. The question mark is over intent isn't it - and whether that can continue to be a defence under the laws in future?

The apology I heartily agree on. Unfortunately with the press coverage since I'd be very surprised if one did come before the end of the series. Digging ones heels in and all that...
As for off the ball I think I've already covered that, er, somewhere?

Well I can’t help what you think of me – and I certainly won’t lose any sleep over it. At all.

Oh dear. I see now how you could have taken it that way. This was NOT intentional believe it or not. Heh.
Actually I was referring to another ex-Tigers player who is, erm, a 'little more involved' with the current tour shall we say?
Sorry about that.

I do seem to have been dragged into defending the Lions camp’s behaviour when actually my main concern is Tana and the AB’s shocking lack of civility and decorum over the issue. Had Tana said sorry publically the next day I doubt I would be tolerating Clive’s continued focus. As it stands I think the ABs deserve it to a certain extent. I’m certainly not calling for retrospective lynchings or cardings though (am I – or did I get really carried away with previous posts???).

I don't have an exact timeline but I have a feeling that much of the furor had already kicked in by then and that Tana was probably already sequestered as a result of Clive's antics. Cause and effect.
Otherwise I would almost certainly agree.

[ravagon]

LMAO@ Andydog.

[ravagon]

Originally posted by finbar

Lovely stuff. And the last line is a pearler. I remember mentioning Richard Loe to Havak once. He wasn't familiar with Mr Loe. Put it this way. Richard Loe makes D. Grewcock look like a sane, sensible, well-adjusted, immaculately fair rugby player.

You're quite right about Mr Loe. We've spent much of the past decade or so trying to live down his reputation. From memory eye-gouging came as naturally as breathing ...

[Havak]

Well he is wrong about the lineout – numbers made no difference. As you say awful throwing (and the opposition knowing your calls rather than just bad calls) contributed – but numbers didn’t.

And poor old lardy – he is no Einstein is he? And yes I am worried!

My only reservation is that I've never heard of the bugger.

Llanelli player and long time Ireland bit player. Solid enough club man but I would never have picked him as a possible Lion is a million years. To play him ahead of Corry (or even Owen) for example is quite bizarre to me. He can only be there for his mobility as you say. He does score over Martin on that front. But then with go forward ball and on the charge Corry takes much more stopping and also recycles well. It’s a gamble – I hope it works.

It sounds like Cusiter is better equipped to handle a pitbull like Kellaher.

I’m truly not sure if he is physically – but he would certainly give it a go (Ellis like in that regard) whereas Peel can surrender somewhat when bullied (as you picked). Dawson would be the safe bet the handle the physical tussling – but the rest of his game is not good enough anymore.

:sly:

You picked me on that one then?

This seems so implicitly obvious to me that I'm having difficulty grasping where your point of contention comes from.

I think I actually totally missed the point you were trying to make believe it or not. Surprised eh? I didn’t realise you were defending them on the grounds they could not know the ball was just gone when they made the tackle and could not ignore the freshly arrived player – I actually thought you were suggesting Brian piled in knowing the ball had gone? :doh:

Your point then was that Keven and Tana couldn’t be expected to not tackle him simply because the ball wasn’t there? I think there is some foundation in that – but it’s the dangerous nature of the tackle under the Campbell circus microscope not the fact it occurred? I’m also not sure that ignorance of the fact the ball has gone is any kind of defence under the laws governing tackles (and lateness of same)?

Or – am I still barking up the wrong tree?

The apology I heartily agree on. Unfortunately with the press coverage since I'd be very surprised if one did come before the end of the series. Digging ones heels in and all that...

In all honesty – and partisan banter aside – I believe both camps have got this one totally wrong. It could have been killed last Sunday – and all Campbells subsequent efforts negated – very easily. Yes it would have required the word “sorry” but is that such a big deal? The series is the ABs anyway, I suspect we all know that, and this descent into mutual hatred (and I don’t think it’s too strong a word?) between the camps is very disappointing.

Lions tours are special coming only every twelve years to each country in the pro era – and this one has been badly tainted by stupidity (and I just refuse to accept that stupidity is confined totally to one camp)

And yes (for Finbar) Campbell is the ring master of the Lions media circus. He’s a ****. What else can I say?

Actually I was referring to another ex-Tigers player who is, erm, a 'little more involved' with the current tour shall we say?
Sorry about that.

Heh, I found it funny when I thought it was about me!!

I thought it was in the spirit of our ‘robust’ banter – and a stoic reply seemed perfectly in character.

I have been like a dog with a bone on it anyway – with occasional visiting support I am fighting the corner of four countries alone as per usual.

Perhaps if you called him the ex London Irish or Bath coach it might help me avoid my regular bouts of confusion.

I don't have an exact timeline but I have a feeling that much of the furor had already kicked in by then and that Tana was probably already sequestered as a result of Clive's antics. Cause and effect.
Otherwise I would almost certainly agree.

It’s a reasonable argument. One camp went all out attack and the other entered siege mode. It’s human nature isn’t it?

I’m actually excited about the game tomorrow – I really still expect an AB win and a comfortable one at that but the prospect of seeing Shame Williams trying to tackle that huge Fijian brings back memories of Lomu-Underwood (not good memories you understand).

From memory eye-gouging came as naturally as breathing ...

I think the worst culprit you have now, my thoughts on Williams aside, is a chap called Troy Flavell? I guess Grewcock takes that role for England? For the Aussies McCrae remains the dirtiest player I have ever seen from those shores. Boks? Their former captain Krige for Novemebr 2002 alone.

Way back in the late 90s a flanker called Anglesea was filmed shoving his finger in an opposing props eye to the second knuckle. He was banned for 12 months – but won an appeal on the grounds that it was not deliberate(! - to the second knuckle!). This guy moved to Sale in his later career and was regularly involved in ‘robust’ play. I fondly recall Jonno giving him a friendly slap a few seasons back.

I suppose the most notable one though was a young Bath prop called Kevin Yates who almost bit an opponents ear lobe off (strangely I have seen this too much at amateur level!) and after his lengthy ban moved to S12 in NZ (Waikato I think?) for several seasons before also ending up at Sale. I always wondered if the NZ public knew why that rarity of an Englishman heading south was actually there?

[Andydog]

Originally posted by Havak
In all honesty – and partisan banter aside – I believe both camps have got this one totally wrong. It could have been killed last Sunday – and all Campbells subsequent efforts negated – very easily. Yes it would have required the word “sorry” but is that such a big deal? The series is the ABs anyway, I suspect we all know that, and this descent into mutual hatred (and I don’t think it’s too strong a word?) between the camps is very disappointing.

The thing is, Havak, Tana insisted he did nothing wrong. This means that as far as he is concerned, he has nothing to apologise for. (Unless the Brits think he should say "Brian, I'm so sorry this was rugby and not tiddlywinks..."). Of course Tana would commiserate - he's a decent bloke. Most guys would feel bad for another injured player.

Anyway, round and round in circles we go..

Another thing, this sort of nonsensical "he should apologise!!" type calls just don’t happen in the SH. If our teams play each other and one is on the receiving end, it’s kept on the field, and that’s the way it is. We don’t b!tch about it thru the media. To us that only makes the b!tching team look like sore losers. So why should we suddenly be drawn into a cat-fight now?

If the NH little girls can’t handle the way rugby is played in the SH then they should stick to their NH club rug-bish.

Originally posted by finbar
The odds on the Lions' M.O. being what it has been if the pr*ck Alistair Campbell weren't the Lions' media advisor?

He he. I honestly don't see the point in announcing to the world that you're employing the services of a professional spin doctor to handle your press activities. You're effectively telling the world that any information you let them have is unlikely to be truthful and that sort of defeats the purpose. By all means employ the man to prepare your press releases in the background, but to employ him as a spokesman is a joke.

And now for some more giggles: