We really should be attacking Saudi Aradia.

[MrFun]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


yeah, cause putting idiotic stickers on biology texts, and denying gays a right that they probably ought to have, but have done without for the first 224 years of American history, will surely destroy the Republic. Yeah, right.

So then blacks were doing just fine without equal rights before the Civil Rights movement, just because they did not have those rights for such a long time anyway?


Chrisitian fundamentalists want to tear down the separation between church and state. That most certainly is destructive of a democratic republic. I'm thankful that they have not gained complete power of our government yet.

[lord of the mark]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by MrFun


[qSo then blacks were doing just fine without equal rights before the Civil Rights movement, just because they did not have those rights for such a long time anyway?[/q]

No it wasnt fine. But the resistance to civil rights did NOT represent a threat to the Republic. Or herald a new "dark age". It was a backlash to progress. Progress ALWAYS creates backlashes. Its necessary to seperate such backlashes from real threats to the Republic in order to respond appropriately, I believe.

Christian fundamentalists want to tear down the separation between church and state. That most certainly is destructive of a democratic republic. I'm thankful that they have not gained complete power of our government yet.

The non-establishment of religion was not always interpreted as a strict wall of seperation. My mom told me how in her childhood they not only said prayers in school but actually said the Lords Prayer (she was living outside of NYC at the time) She told me this made her feel uncomfortable as a Jew. IF say, school prayer were restored, and IF a NT prayer was instituted here in Virginia, it would certainly make POTM uncomfortable. I would certainly object.

But it would NOT mean the end of the Republic. It would mean a return to the status quo of a time when the Republic was a less good place than it is now. Thats all. Thats what politics is about - different people advocate different policies - some people think a given policy makes things worse, some better. So we argue, we form alliances, we try to win.

NOT the same as threats to democracy.

[Commy]

If prayer was issued in school, America could go into chaos...and I'm serious about this...you can argue about whether Americans are free or not, but you can't argue the fact that most of them think they are free...

Considering that people actually believe there is a separation between church and state (which there isn't, unfortunately), it would be extremely difficult, extremely dangerous, and extremely foolish to put school prayer in public schools...even choosing what the school prayer should be would prove difficult when you account for the amount of Jews, Muslims, Catholics, and yes, even voodoo people...and a good number of each too...

The fact is, if George Bush truly had intentions to protect this country, America, imposing school prayer would be absolutely the worst thing he could do...

For the Muslim terrorists, it would be the equivalent of placing embargos on all of the mid-east...ALL of the mid-east...

These terrorists claim that America is evil and is some retarded Christian fundy society...with Bush as president, I almost believed them...if school prayer is imposed, then are these seemly outrageous claims by terrorists would actually be accurate, and people would then have to choose between the lesser of two evils...

If only religion was obsolete, this world would be a better place...

[MrFun]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by lord of the mark

Originally posted by MrFun


[qSo then blacks were doing just fine without equal rights before the Civil Rights movement, just because they did not have those rights for such a long time anyway?[/q]

No it wasnt fine. But the resistance to civil rights did NOT represent a threat to the Republic. Or herald a new "dark age". It was a backlash to progress. Progress ALWAYS creates backlashes. Its necessary to seperate such backlashes from real threats to the Republic in order to respond appropriately, I believe.

Christian fundamentalists want to tear down the separation between church and state. That most certainly is destructive of a democratic republic. I'm thankful that they have not gained complete power of our government yet.

The non-establishment of religion was not always interpreted as a strict wall of seperation. My mom told me how in her childhood they not only said prayers in school but actually said the Lords Prayer (she was living outside of NYC at the time) She told me this made her feel uncomfortable as a Jew. IF say, school prayer were restored, and IF a NT prayer was instituted here in Virginia, it would certainly make POTM uncomfortable. I would certainly object.

But it would NOT mean the end of the Republic. It would mean a return to the status quo of a time when the Republic was a less good place than it is now. Thats all. Thats what politics is about - different people advocate different policies - some people think a given policy makes things worse, some better. So we argue, we form alliances, we try to win.

NOT the same as threats to democracy.

There are two underlying principles for a democratic republic: equal rights and liberty for citizens, and separation of church and state.

So how can you claim that violations of equal rights and/or liberty, and violation of separation of church and state do not undermine the democratic republic?

Abraham Lincoln himself understood that slavery was antithetical to the idea of a democratic republic. And we have real examples in the Middle East how religious fundamentalism, when capable of forcing its religious morals onto its people, is destructive of any possibility for a democratic republic.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Agathon


There'll be jack you can do about it if they do anyway, so that's wasted effort.

The Saudis are a much easier nut to crack than Iraq.

[MrFun]

I thought it would be much harder, since United States is a vassal of Saudi Arabia.

[Dinner]

It's a pretty foolish claim that people like Ben Kenobi are some how going to destroy western civilization or suddenly go around blowing up school buses full of children like Arab terrorists do.

As much as I dispise the man I don't see Pat Roberts followers hijacking planes and flying them into buildings. Sure, Pat and his elk are scum but they are nothing like nor as violent as your average Islamic fundie.

[Last Conformist]

Ben, tho, is a good argument for destroying Western civilization.

[Sandman]

They spend more on their military than Israel. I doubt they're anywhere near as good, though. But weaker than Iraq?

[MrFun]

Christian fundamenatlists use different means than Islamic fanatics, Oerdin. But that doesn't change the fact that Christian fundamentalists are antithetical to the principles of a democratic republic.

I'm not sure where you thought I claimed that Christian fundamentalists use the same terrorist tactics that Islamic fanatics use.

(of course, there are a tiny, tiny number of those who murder abortion doctors and blow up clinics)

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by MrFun
I thought it would be much harder, since United States is a vassal of Saudi Arabia.

Only because it's convenient to our interests in the global market. Unfortunately for the Saudis, the majority of their population and their military power can be separated quite nicely from their oil fields and port facilities. Cut the economic heart out of them, and leave them riding their camels around between Mecca and Medina. All we'd really need to deal with heavily are KKMC and Dhahran.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Sandman
They spend more on their military than Israel. I doubt they're anywhere near as good, though. But weaker than Iraq?

I'd go with much weaker then Iraq. The stories Gulf war 1 vets told me about Sadui incompetance do color my views though. We're talking about a country that buys hundreds of billions of dollars worth of state of the art fighters yet almost none of them fly because no one knowns how to fix them. What's more every Saudi citizen wants to be the pilot and no one wants to be the mechanic dispite the fact that, at least by objective western standards, few of them even have a hope of ever being qualified to opporate it.

Even the Saudis themselves say to never hire a Saudi because they're so used to free handouts that the lazy bastards just want to get paid to drink coffee and read the paper. Doing actual work at work doesn't often get done thus dispite the fact that the real unemployment rate is around 40%-50% they still have to get foreign experts to run just about everything in the country. It's telling that in a country where education is free almost no one studies engineering, math, business, science or other economically useful subjects yet nearly half the population gets degrees in theology in order to become Imams. Surely, they can't all be preachers and someone must be the guy who's getting preached to.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by MrFun


There are two underlying principles for a democratic republic: equal rights and liberty for citizens, and separation of church and state.

there are a number of european countries that do not have a wall of seperation between church and state, yet are democracies. Most are republics, some are constitutional monarchies. (I would note that in many of those not very many people are religious - im not saying establishment of religion is effective)

Democracy requires tolerance of the practice of different religions (and non-religion) and it requires all have rights as citizens regardless of religion. It does NOT require that there be no establishment of religion, much less that there be a wall of seperation.

[MrFun]

But Christian fundamnetalists ARE intolerant of other religions!

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by MrFun
But Christian fundamnetalists ARE intolerant of other religions!

but theyre not trying to make the state intolerant of other religions.