Microsoft hates Freedom and Democracy!!!

[Asher]

Originally posted by Agathon
Only if you think it is always ethical to trade with people no matter what their laws are. That seems to me a patently absurd position that invites obvious counterexamples (like the Jew killing one).

Again, please stop treating this like it is about trade. It's not. Most trade with China is fine. This is about colluding with human rights abuses.

It's about you getting your rocks off criticising a company you have a vendetta against.

This kind of news was public long ago with other companies -- Google (Blogger), eBay, Amazon, Yahoo, etc.

Now when it's Microsoft that does it, you try to make it a big deal.

You're too transparant.

You want Microsoft to lose out on many billions of dollars for taking a futile "ethical stance" that has no impact on any human rights issues in China.

This is why HP failed under Carly's watch, FWIW. So out of touch.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Asher

Or maybe the point is the Chinese are free not to buy Microsoft products?

That's absurd. I am not free to buy a Santos football shirt in Canada. Should the club be forced to sell them here, even if they don't want to.

Not at all. My point was I think a lot of things are unethical, yet they remain a valid business.

No-one disagrees that some unethical acts are profitable. But it is absurd to admit that something is unethical and then attempt to justify profiting from it. Shall I start distributing rape films?

The entire closed nature of Apple's business is unethical.

Don't exaggerate, please.

Don't they even sue sites (censor, if you will) for talking about things Apple wants to be hush-hush?

Yes, and trolls aside, I think that sucks.

Please go start a thread about how Apple hates Freedom and Democracy -- it's certainly far more apt than criticism of Microsoft for following laws.

There's nothing illegal about Apple's lawsuits, but that's not the point.

It absolutely is.

If your actions have no effect, what's the point in putting yourself at a major competitive disadvantage?

(1) Because it is unethical. That's like saying: "No matter what happens, someone will rape this woman, therefore it's OK if I do it". That has no effect on the outcome (she gets raped), but are you seriously saying that this should allow you to rape her?

Or how about this case: "I'll go out of business if I don't start selling heroin to kids. No matter what happens, someone will sell it to them anyway. Therefore it is right to sell heroin to kids."

**** man... see a doctor... that's seriously warped thinking.

(2) It's not clear that they will have no effect. It certainly won't help. A refusal by major software companies, including Google and MS, would do more to help human rights I think, by forcing the Chinese to explore more expensive and less efficient options.

[Kuciwalker]

Aggie, you're the utilitarian. Obviously an act should be judged by its outcome.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Asher

It's about you getting your rocks off criticising a company you have a vendetta against.

Not really. It would be more about me seeing the morning news and thinking "that'll get Asher as angry as a wet hen".

This kind of news was public long ago with other companies -- Google (Blogger), eBay, Amazon, Yahoo, etc.

Now when it's Microsoft that does it, you try to make it a big deal.

Have I excused the others? No. Do I think they're as bad? Yes.

You're too transparant.

You want Microsoft to lose out on many billions of dollars for taking a futile "ethical stance" that has no impact on any human rights issues in China.

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Or... I could just think it is immoral to make money from abuses of human rights. I guess you think it is fine. How awful....

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
Aggie, you're the utilitarian. Obviously an act should be judged by its outcome.

Them's fighting words, young Skywalker. I am a virtue ethicist tanks vvery muich

[Kuciwalker]

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by Asher
It's about you getting your rocks off criticising a company you have a vendetta against.

This kind of news was public long ago with other companies -- Google (Blogger), eBay, Amazon, Yahoo, etc.

Now when it's Microsoft that does it, you try to make it a big deal.

You're too transparant.

You want Microsoft to lose out on many billions of dollars for taking a futile "ethical stance" that has no impact on any human rights issues in China.

This is why HP failed under Carly's watch, FWIW. So out of touch.

Exactly. I don't remember a thread when other companies did the same thing. I wonder why?

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
It's amazing that you think THAT is why we have such a trade deficit with China. Hell, without them buying up our dollars, I'd hate to see where the US economy would be.

And you are saying our companies should act out our 'moral beliefs' by getting more goods from Africa and the Middle East? WTF?

Except if we didn't have an open trade policy with China then western companies wouldn't be lining up to take advantage of cheap Chinese labor, would they? No market access means no one willing to build factories there. I consider Israel and Turkey to be part of the middle east and they have fairly good human rights histories while small countries such as Lebennon, Kuwait, the UAE, and Oman would also make great trading partners. India has just as much spare labor as China while Africa and Latin America would also help supply labor for the global capitalist machine. We can function without Chinese labor and without feeding the monster which is communist China.

[Imran Siddiqui]

We can function without Chinese labor and without feeding the monster which is communist China.

If you really think we can do it without a decade long recession, then you have some delusions. We have a ton of money tied up in China and it won't be easy to move. It's an incredibly large market, and you'll be asking companies to shut themselves off from 1/6th of the worlds population.

And ask yourself this. What do you prefer? Today's capitalist China or Mao's closed off China? I know I'd take the present variety.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Actually China and Japan were involved in buying up dollars to keep the dollar from falling too fast. The Chinese, especially, because, IIRC, their currency is pegged to the dollar.

The Chinese only buy dollars from exporting firms. You have to export from China to the US to sell these dollars to China. That's different from what the Japanese do.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui


When every other country in the world trades with them? When they are under no sanctions by the UN? Yes, it's ethical to trade with people even if you think their laws suck.

It may be ethical to trade with people who abuse human rights. It's not ethical to ABUSE HUMAN rights, which is what microsoft will be doing by censoring speech.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Oerdin
I consider Israel and Turkey to be part of the middle east and they have fairly good human rights histories

Oh lordy no.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by Kidicious
It may be ethical to trade with people who abuse human rights. It's not ethical to ABUSE HUMAN rights, which is what microsoft will be doing by censoring speech.

Isn't that what Yahoo is doing as well by not allowing French or German citizens from buying or selling Nazi memorabilia? Why is it ok for Yahoo to 'abuse human rights' by denying freedom of speech due to the laws of a country it does business in, but not for Microsoft?

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Isn't that what Yahoo is doing as well by not allowing French or German citizens from buying or selling Nazi memorabilia? Why is it ok for Yahoo to 'abuse human rights' by denying freedom of speech due to the laws of a country it does business in, but not for Microsoft?

Because the German people are generally as free as anybody else. The Chinese people aren't.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by Kidicious
Because the German people are generally as free as anybody else. The Chinese people aren't.

So human rights violations only matter in areas where people are not 'generally free'? So you think the Abu Ghirab and Gitmo abuses don't matter because the American people are as generally free as anybody else?

What an utterly silly view.