Microsoft hates Freedom and Democracy!!!

[Sikander]

Originally posted by MarkG
so if microsoft was around in ww2 what kind of software would it build for the nazis?

Just think how many might have been saved if the Nazis were forced to use Microsoft software.

[Last Conformist]

Aggie:

Because this isn't about a private company censoring its own private service for it's own reasons, but a private company colluding with a government to enforce a nationwide prohibition on free speech.

That's simply not what's happening. A blogging service increases the space for people to express themselves. Thanks to state censorship, the extension isn't as large as one might wish for, but if M$ kept out there'd be no extension at all.

In the Aggiverse, restricted opportunities to express oneself is apparently worse than none.

[aneeshm]

Originally posted by Agathon

Come on Aggie , answer me . Have you ever used Google ?

Sure, I'm not best pleased with them either.

You claim that MS should not censor stuff in Shina , ecause doing so would give tacit sanction to them . If they are an evil company , then you should not sanction MS , by the same logic . This means , however , that Google is equally evil in you eyes , and that you are sanctioning their behaviour by using Google , which means that you are guilty of the same thing as is MS .

[planet]

Originally posted by Asher
It's standard practice for any company operating in that communist hellhole, Google and Yahoo as well.

Communism.

Truth.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Last Conformist

That's simply not what's happening. A blogging service increases the space for people to express themselves. Thanks to state censorship, the extension isn't as large as one might wish for, but if M$ kept out there'd be no extension at all.

In the Aggiverse, restricted opportunities to express oneself is apparently worse than none.

Are you on crack?

I mean seriously. I know Asher is completely daft and amoral, but you seriously believe this?

Why don't you read the thread? My point is about whether it's ethical for companies to profit from human rights violations. You say that's fine with you because it might be worse. Try generalizing that to other examples and see what happens.

You claim that MS should not censor stuff in Shina , ecause doing so would give tacit sanction to them . If they are an evil company , then you should not sanction MS , by the same logic . This means , however , that Google is equally evil in you eyes , and that you are sanctioning their behaviour by using Google , which means that you are guilty of the same thing as is MS .

This is insane. Who mentioned anything about boycotts? Your idea of what counts as logically consistent behvaiour is worse than Ashers, and his is that of a two-year-old.

You need a bit more argument to get to that.

[aneeshm]

The above post is seemingly the high point of Aggie's debating .

[Agathon]

Originally posted by aneeshm
The above post is seemingly the high point of Aggie's debating .

Why don't you read the whole thread instead of asking irrelevant questions that make assumptions not shared by me?

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by aneeshm
This means , however , that Google is equally evil in you eyes , and that you are sanctioning their behaviour by using Google , which means that you are guilty of the same thing as is MS .

This is the same kind of reasoning that you people use when debating communism. To you communists shouldn't work or use computers or buy things, because capitalism created those things. None of those things are immoral, just like doing business in China isn't immoral. But then that's not the issue. I could tell you the issue again, but it wouldn't make any difference, because you don't want to debate that.

[aneeshm]

Originally posted by Agathon


Why don't you read the whole thread instead of asking irrelevant questions that make assumptions not shared by me?

Why don't you actually answer me and the points I made ?

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Last Conformist
Aggie:

Because this isn't about a private company censoring its own private service for it's own reasons, but a private company colluding with a government to enforce a nationwide prohibition on free speech.

That's simply not what's happening. A blogging service increases the space for people to express themselves. Thanks to state censorship, the extension isn't as large as one might wish for, but if M$ kept out there'd be no extension at all.

In the Aggiverse, restricted opportunities to express oneself is apparently worse than none.

depends how China responds - if MS says no, do they decide to drop the whole idea, or get another provider.

And if numerous providers say no, do they drop the idea, or reduce the more blatant censorship?

And is limited "free expression" thats limited always better than none? Does it ever make sense to boycott a rigged election? In Iran the govt apparently has relaxed its dress codes and so fourth, in an attempt to defuse demands for political change. As the apartheid govt of South Africa gave up on "petit apartheid" in an attempt to continue to deny the vote to blacks. So if China lets folks blog about their day to day problems, their sex lives, their favorite games, while censoring discussion of politics - is that a good expansion of freedom, or a safety valve designed to keep the system in place?

[Agathon]

Originally posted by aneeshm


Why don't you actually answer me and the points I made ?

Because it would be a lot of work, and doesn't really change my point.

I've accepted that both Google and Microsoft are engaging in unethical behaviour, but I don't see what good a boycott would do, and I don't think it is justified in this case (solutions to this sort of problem are political IMHO). But the thread is about whether Microsoft's actions are bad, not what to do about it (that comes next).

I'd like to see the Chinese people better off. IMHO the Chinese government is to be saluted for the progress it has made in this direction in the last 15 years. On the other hand, they aren't perfect, and this Orwellian scheme is pure evil. That being said, we may owe our Chinese friends help to get around it if they ask, but we shouldn't be letting corporations from our part of the world collude in their repression for profit. Think of what we would say if the shoe was on the other foot.

As for boycotts. I don't think they would work, and they would not recognize all the good things these companies do. Shaming them out of it seems a better strategy, but this thread is about whether or not it is a bad thing.

There.. I hope you consider that a reasonable answer.

[Agathon]

And is limited "free expression" thats limited always better than none? Does it ever make sense to boycott a rigged election? In Iran the govt apparently has relaxed its dress codes and so fourth, in an attempt to defuse demands for political change. As the apartheid govt of South Africa gave up on "petit apartheid" in an attempt to continue to deny the vote to blacks. So if China lets folks blog about their day to day problems, their sex lives, their favorite games, while censoring discussion of politics - is that a good expansion of freedom, or a safety valve designed to keep the system in place?

Word.

Hell. I'm agreeing with Tom Friedman.

[lord of the mark]

That last post sounds like Aggie is trying to find a way to trash M$ as evil, without actually trashing the govt of China. The thread is titled MS hates freedom and democracy - thats either a troll or it implies that the govt of China hates freedom and democracy. If we're going to give China credit for its progress, we might as well do so to Kuwait, KSA, Egypt - and a bunch of other places I doubt Aggie would give credit to.

But I guess the lack of a philosophical education beyond 4 semester courses (and one of those taught by a Straussian at that) makes me unqualified for such subtlety.

[Imran Siddiqui]

That last post sounds like Aggie is trying to find a way to trash M$ as evil, without actually trashing the govt of China.

Well I've gotten that impression since the opening post .

[Agathon]

Hey. My reply got munched.

No. I don't see any logical sophistication in being able to laud a government for doing good things, while condemning it for doing bad things. You think that I think that medicare is evil?