Growing rift? UK+Europe

[Odin]

Originally posted by paiktis22
the whole thing is tuned into destroying the social state and eroding workers rights that have been gained through struggles and blood. and instead of stopping and finding ways to protect it and them, the political elites simply apologize and point the finger at "the global economic situation" probably the biggest chimera since i dont know when. the point is not to "negotiate" with the neoliberal plague but to smash it from the bottom up hence forcing the political elites to take a minimum distance from their financial overlords. imo.

WORD!

[Odin]

I would rather live in Sweden than in the UK. You neo-liberal fools are so obsessed with economic growth you forget about quality of life.

[DanS]

If the members decide now that the european agriculture can be destroyed, they can do it; but this has nothing to do with the rebate.

I'm afraid the Brits don't see it that way. And I tend to agree with them. The CAP is crazy. Agriculture is a very small percentage of everybody's economy, but it is driving EU politics.

The country that is getting hosed through all of this is the Germans. They should play hardball to get their contribution reduced. I don't know what Germany gets by supporting the CAP and the rebate.

[DanS]

Originally posted by Colon


I agree, let's stir things up a bit. Previous crises always have had a cleansing effect.

Like you, I don't see anything wrong with a crisis or two.

[DAVOUT]

It is funny to observe that those who were so eager to enlarge the Union are now using the decisive argument against the structural funding of the new members.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Dauphin
Or put another way, France will be by far the big winner if the UK lost its rebate.

Thus Chirac's current whining and the reason the UK shouldn't budge until CAP is dead.

[Lancer]

GB and the US, together again.

Advantages to the US:

An unsinkable aircraft carrier off the european continent.

A people with a strong tradition of winning.

A vast trading empire, and a share of North Sea oil.

Advantages to GB:

Less French

Less French

Less French

[DAVOUT]

Originally posted by Lancer
GB and the US, together again.

Advantages to the US:

A vast trading empire

I would rather say : a vast purchasing empire.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by DAVOUT
One tragic error was to accept the Brits in the Common Market. The second tragic error was to grant them a rebate.

Nonsense. The UK's demands for reform are going to save the EU in the long run. France isn't budging on its sacred cow (CAP) so the UK isn't going to move on its sacred cow (the rebate) until someone helps them cut into CAP at the same time.

[Drogue]

Originally posted by DAVOUT
One tragic error was to accept the Brits in the Common Market. The second tragic error was to grant them a rebate.

The PAC was not decided to please the French but to build productive capacities of foods for the whole Europe. If the members decide now that the european agriculture can be destroyed, they can do it; but this has nothing to do with the rebate.

Except that they're both bargaining chips. The whole idea of EU politics, as Spiffor once put it, is that everything gets passed because anyone it's going to annoy gets consessions. If you want to take the rebate away from us, while we have a veto, be prepared to offer something in it's place, or we'll veto it. Removing/reducing the CAP is what we want, so if you want the rebate that badly, offer it too us. If not, then we'll keep the rebate, thanks.

One of the few good things Thatcher did, the rebate. I may be glad I didn't have to live through much of her reign, but I'm sure glad it happened. No union ability to hold the country to ransom, better entrepreneurship and businesses and enough money back to make the EU a good idea for the UK.

[DAVOUT]

Originally posted by Oerdin


Nonsense. The UK's demands for reform are going to save the EU in the long run. France isn't budging on its sacred cow (CAP) so the UK isn't going to move on its sacred cow (the rebate) until someone helps them cut into CAP at the same time.

The nonsense would be to rely on the UK to save the EU. The UK did not participate in the creation, it implored to join when it realized the potentialities of the Union, only in order to prevent a political association.

[Lancer]

The only hope for european union is through conquest.

Oooppss! Forgot about nukes there for a sec, nevermind.

[LDiCesare]

I must say that I believe Blair's arguments were quite sensible when he said spending 40% of spendings on agriculture was a bit high. I'm not sure whether his figure is right, but I agree that agriculture has too much of a weight in Europe and that I'd rather have money sent to help technologies, education or defense. But Chirac is a *** and won't move, he's just trying to pretend the Brits are sinking Europe, but his share is as big as Blair's in this crisis. Well, only 2 years left with him...

[BeBMan]

Bottom line: the union can't work if everyone is only trying to maximalize its national profit out of it. That we can have anytime without a union. All sides need to show some good will to make the EU work. Maybe the current crisis works as a reminder here......

[Drogue]

That the EU shouldn't work? The EU has and always will be run by national politics, because it's the national voters that decide whether the politicians stay or go. These voters don't care (at least here) about high minded unification ideas of the political elite, they care about money, and where it's going. If the British taxpayer doesn't care about european integration, why should he, or anyone else, pay for it?

All the union is is a mass of treaties. Since we disagree so much on tax, spending, liberalism, defence and foreign policy, I don't see the point in integrating them. Why not accept that the main use of the EU is the EEC - the free movement and lowering of barriers between nations - and enforce new entrants to adhere to our human rights law, if we want to enshrine that.

The EU has some good policies, but these can be implimented on a national level if countries want them. The latest "crisis" simply shows how differently nations see the EU.