G8 - Debt forgiveness for poorest nations

[lord of the mark]

Re: Re: G8 - Debt forgiveness for poorest nations

Originally posted by MrFun



In other words United States will not want the G8 nations to forgive debts of socialist countries or any other country that has a liberal government, right?

well they are all talking about funding health care, and the conservatives here define govt funding of health care as liberal, if not socialist I think the idea is that if they want to fund money losing industries, etc (the kind of stuff LOA is referring to, I think) theyre not going to get forgiveness of debts. Kinda like your insurance company doesnt want to pay off if you suffer damage from your own mistakes.

[Dinner]

I'm not really sure about debt forgiveness. It's nice in theory but almost always the credit card jsut gets charged up again in short order and the money is wasted on garbage while the corrupt government stays in place. We end up out huge amounts of cash while nothing changes for the people on the ground.

[MrFun]

Re: Re: Re: G8 - Debt forgiveness for poorest nations

Originally posted by lord of the mark



well they are all talking about funding health care, and the conservatives here define govt funding of health care as liberal, if not socialist I think the idea is that if they want to fund money losing industries, etc (the kind of stuff LOA is referring to, I think) theyre not going to get forgiveness of debts. Kinda like your insurance company doesnt want to pay off if you suffer damage from your own mistakes.

The only debt forgiveness that I would see as morally upright and done in the spirit of fairness, is when debt forgiveness is granted to all legitimate governments that are not hostile to us, and lack any form of repression of its own people.

Using any other qualifications in order to grant debt forgiveness is just playing politics on the international scale. Granting debt forgiveness for example, to only countries that are right-wing, conservative governments in which the rulers allow United States to meddle in their affairs would be an unjustified, and immoral means of granting debt forgiveness.

[lord of the mark]

Re: Re: Re: Re: G8 - Debt forgiveness for poorest nations

Originally posted by MrFun


The only debt forgiveness that I would see as morally upright and done in the spirit of fairness, is when debt forgiveness is granted to all legitimate governments that are not hostile to us, and lack any form of repression of its own people.

Using any other qualifications in order to grant debt forgiveness is just playing politics on the international scale. Granting debt forgiveness for example, to only countries that are right-wing, conservative governments in which the rulers allow United States to meddle in their affairs would be an unjustified, and immoral means of granting debt forgiveness.

Its not about meddling in their affairs, so much as about making sure that the debt forgiveness doesnt create an incentive to the kinds of policies that contributed to the problem in the first place. Its called "moral hazard" in the insurance business. If they want to place their soveriegnty over all, they are free to turn down the debt forgiveness.

so lets see 0erdin and LOA are unhappy at the future prospects even WITH conditions, and Mr Fun is angry about the conditions. Must be a pretty good compromise, then.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Oerdin
I'm not really sure about debt forgiveness. It's nice in theory but almost always the credit card jsut gets charged up again in short order and the money is wasted on garbage while the corrupt government stays in place. We end up out huge amounts of cash while nothing changes for the people on the ground.

The difference is that a lot of this debt was given by western countries to prop up or buy off anti-communist governments during the cold war.

It is less likely that new loans will be given like they were before.

As for what it changes for poor people,
"In Tanzania, a previous debt-relief deal helped end school fees, enabling 1.5 million extra children to attend classes,"

This weekend's $40 billion debt cancellation agreeded to by rich-nation finance ministers will, for instance, enable Zambia to hire 7,000 new teachers. Likewise, Tanzania will no longer spend 12 percent of its annual budget on servicing its debts. Instead, it could build new hospitals and roads.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0613/p01s02-woaf.html

[MrFun]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: G8 - Debt forgiveness for poorest nations

Originally posted by lord of the mark


Its not about meddling in their affairs, so much as about making sure that the debt forgiveness doesnt create an incentive to the kinds of policies that contributed to the problem in the first place. Its called "moral hazard" in the insurance business. If they want to place their soveriegnty over all, they are free to turn down the debt forgiveness.

so lets see 0erdin and LOA are unhappy at the future prospects even WITH conditions, and Mr Fun is angry about the conditions. Must be a pretty good compromise, then.

Ok, I after hearing you out now, I suppose the conditions are reasonable -- in the way that you have explained them, at least.

[Lawrence of Arabia]

look, im not necessairly against debt relief, but you need to change the incentives for these 3rd world governments. if all you do is take away their debt, it will get rung up again (as history shows)

one way to change the incentives is to change the way the world bank lends out money (and the IMF.) If thses organizations were more of a scrooge, and would have a central pile of money that only good governments can bid on, we would see the money not get defaulted on, and go to places were we can see actual effects because the government is a 'good' government, and more help for the poor.

as it stands now with 'country bureaus' these donors give out money because they want to help the poor, no matter how the recipient governments work. these governments know this, and they can abuse the money and get away with it, because no one is going to slam the door shut.

[Saras]

I'd rather see those countries recolonised and stay so for 50 years

Then we'll see

[Kidlicious]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: G8 - Debt forgiveness for poorest nations

Originally posted by lord of the mark
Its not about meddling in their affairs, so much as about making sure that the debt forgiveness doesnt create an incentive to the kinds of policies that contributed to the problem in the first place.

You're assuming that there is no connection between politics and economic policies. Not a good assumption.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia
heres the problem - forgiving debt doesnt change a country's incentive to a) go back into debt and b) not pay it off.

so the same thing happens again.

But if you don't forgive their debt they wont have the money to build their economy.

[chequita guevara]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: G8 - Debt forgiveness for poorest nations

Originally posted by lord of the mark
so lets see 0erdin and LOA are unhappy at the future prospects even WITH conditions, and Mr Fun is angry about the conditions. Must be a pretty good compromise, then.

This has got to be one of the stupidist ideas in moderate "ideology" the idea that a "compromise" is somethow inherently a goo thing. If one guyn wants to build a boat, and another guy doesnt', and they compromise by building half a boat, it will make both sides upset, and rightly so. This is the nature of most political compromises. Yet even with all these half boats lying all over the plae, moderates seem to think it's good. Most times, either or is the best solution. Either don't waste resources building half a boat or spend the money to build a boat that will actually work.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia
2) if debt forgiveness worked, you wouldnt see countries got back into massive debt. the last round of debt forgivness saw $30 bn in forgivness (this was in the 70s or 80s) to a set of countries, who then turned around and got themselves back into debt to the tune of $40 bn.

That wasn't debt relief, it was debt restructuring. They simple changed the amount those coutrnies had to pay, which meant their debts went up, just like you end up owing more on a 30-year mortgage than a 20-year mortgage.

[lord of the mark]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: G8 - Debt forgiveness for poorest nations

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


This has got to be one of the stupidist ideas in moderate "ideology" the idea that a "compromise" is somethow inherently a goo thing. If one guyn wants to build a boat, and another guy doesnt', and they compromise by building half a boat, it will make both sides upset, and rightly so. This is the nature of most political compromises. Yet even with all these half boats lying all over the plae, moderates seem to think it's good. Most times, either or is the best solution. Either don't waste resources building half a boat or spend the money to build a boat that will actually work.

some things are inherently indivisible, and shouldnt be done midway. Half a boat. Or half a war, for ex. You need corner solutions - build the boat or dont. Send enough troops, or dont go to war at all. Other things are amenable to splitting the difference. And some where the middle solution is best. Eating nothing but protein is not healthy. Eating nothing but vegetables is not healthy. Eating both is healthy. A wine thats only sweet is bad. One thats only tannic is bad. One that has tannins, sweetness, etc in balance is good.

This seems to be one of those cases

Not giving debt relief would result in more hunger and poverty than this policy. Giving debt relief without conditioning it on reform would likely mean the relief would serve to incent countries to follow wasteful policies, and might end up increasing hunger and poverty - it would certainly lessen the reduction.

Now guev doesnt much care for this set of reforms, I suppose. I think we can agree to disagree on that. The principle of making debt relief contingent on reform is good.

.

[lord of the mark]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: G8 - Debt forgiveness for poorest nations

Originally posted by Kidicious


You're assuming that there is no connection between politics and economic policies. Not a good assumption.

We're saying you cant use the money to go build an unprofitable steel mill. We're NOT saying you have to be pro-US or pro-UK, that you have to be a parliamentary democracy, or that you have to adopt any particular ideology.

Now if your point is either A. Some political ideologies insist that building an unprofitable steel mill is a good thing OR B. sometime local political coalitions are based on policies like building an unprofitable steel mill - then you are correct. I dont see any way around this problem though, and i certainly dont think it justifies giving the debt relief unconditionally.

[lord of the mark]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: G8 - Debt forgiveness for poorest nations

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


This has got to be one of the stupidist ideas in moderate "ideology" the idea that a "compromise" is somethow inherently a goo thing. If one guyn wants to build a boat, and another guy doesnt', and they compromise by building half a boat, it will make both sides upset, and rightly so. This is the nature of most political compromises. Yet even with all these half boats lying all over the plae, moderates seem to think it's good. Most times, either or is the best solution. Either don't waste resources building half a boat or spend the money to build a boat that will actually work.

The US constitution was founded on numerous compromises, of which most were brilliant, and one was poor (though it did give the Republic a chance to get started) That boat has been floating quite well for a long time. Long may she sail!!!!!!