Mugabe to white farmers: "Oops, my bad"

[Pax]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker


Should I have explicitly added [/sarcasm] tags?

No, I think I should have added sarcasm tags.

[Pax]

Originally posted by Colon


Well, explain Ethiopia then. Its border weren't arbitrarily set up, it was only "coloniseded" for 5 years, it was free to handle their domestic en economic matters as they pleased, and yet it is still limping on.

Colon, good post. In order to explain, agree, or concede I am wrong, I'm going to have to move to Ethiopia for about 6 years then get back to you. Just kidding. Let me read a little about about Ethiopa. Most of my studies have been about Northern Africa on the mediterrean, Kenya, Zimbabwe, South Africa, and certain West African Coast coast countries like the Gambia. Let me look into it. Still it seems a valid point.
I don't think that Africans or different from any other group in that in order to flourish they need self determination, good government, education, independence, and control over sufficient natural resources. I cannot say that Ethiopa definitely had these things. Thanks for making a serious point without resorting to SARCASM or INSULTS.

[Colonâ„¢]

Well, of course you would say that *****.

[Pax]

Originally posted by Colon
Well, of course you would say that *****.

Of course, I would say what? I like to think that I am able to admit when I am wrong. I really would either have to READ more about Ethiopa or you would have to provide more info into the history of Ethiopa.

[Colonâ„¢]

I was just kidding man. (the "without resorting to SARCASM or INSULTS" bit your post there)

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Pax
No, I think I should have added sarcasm tags.

It doesn't make sense for yours to be sarcastic.

[BlackCat]

@pax

I think that some kind of redistribution of agricultural areas in Zimbabwe was needed, but I can't really figure out how you think that it should be done. Clearly, some of the "white" land were previous "black", but much was also new farmed.


How will you draw the linies, and is it enough that black africans take the land or is it should it be descendants of those that primaryly lost it ?

[Ecthy]

Harare, Zimbabwe (SatireWire.com) — Asked to comment Thursday about his loss to Zimbabwe President Robert Mugabe in this week's election, which has been called a fraud by many in the West, opposition leader Morgan Tsvangirai said he was "shocked."

Tsvangirai added that he was also beaten, kicked, bludgeoned, arrested for treason, and left for dead on the side of the road. Mugabe is expected to file vagrancy charges against Tsvangirai if he doesn't move by morning.

[atomant]

Originally posted by Pax

Everytime I find myself interested in a place I can't just get up and move there to see what's going on. I'm sure that you would find it acceptable to take the word of a person who lived there his whole life just as you find your 6 years of experience qualify you as an authority on the subject. In other words, the book trumps 6 years.

No, I base my opinion on life experience, the people I met and talked to there, the people i consider some the best people in the world, black or white and everything in between. I also base my assessment on not just six years, but the fact that I also incorporate my wifes experiences, who is a Zimbabwean, who is black and is one of the 'Born Free generation' born after independence. I also base my opinion on those of her family, who lost businesses because they could not pay the squeeze required by the government to function. Additionally, before I went into banking and finance, I was a reporter for Reuters, guess where I was based and guess what i reported on?

I do not take the opinion of a single person or a single book, I took the opinion of many. If you asked any Zimbabwean, right now today, where they would rather live, 9 out of ten would say anywhere, but Zimbabwe. I have never claimed to be an expert (by defintion an EX is a has been and a SPURT is a drip under pressure), I claim to have experienced the situation very recently, personally and brutally.

Yes the colonial powers commited serious crimes, however that does not give Mugabe the right to do the same (I suggest you expand your reading to include the Matabeleland Masacres in the mid 80's). Mugabe is supposed to have seven degress from various universities, one being in history, he apparently did not learn anything

But to get this thread back on topic, the government needs to do a number of things to get things back on track economically.
1) Release the exchange rate (yes the ZWD will collapse, but it will sort itself out based on the value of goods and srvices produced or requried)
2) Release interest rates. (yes they will sky rocket, companies will close, but these same companies will be rebought, recapitalised and reopen eventually) Further higher interest rates will remove speculative borrowing and lower inflation as people will be getting a return on bank deposits.
3) Slash the civil service by at least 50% and restructure the budget so as 99% of government expenditure is not recurrent.
4) Live within your means (ie don't buy a stretch s600 mercedes when 30% of your population requires food aid.)
5) Pay fair compensation. The British government have said they will fund reform if the land reform process is free and transparent. The government of Zimbabwe calls this interfering with its sovereignity (forgive spelling) If i give someone money, I want to know it is being spent on a good cause, why should governments be any different?
6) Introduce good governance.

The are many more things to do, restructure debt etc etc etc, but doing these things would restore order and balance. A classic exmaple is the Zambia and Mozambique economies, both of which sucked in there guts, made hard decisions and are now reaping economic rewards. When I first arrived in Zimbabwe, one ZWD would buy 150 Zambian Kwacha (ZMK). Now one ZMK will buy you five ZWD.

However, the central problem in Zimbabwe remains one persons greed and desire to hang onto power, even if it means destroying his own country.

In closing, if people want to read about Zimbabwe, www.zimbabwesituation.com provides good uptodate reports from a number of sources, and there are some excellent books out there as well. But do not limit your knowledge to one book or person. An individual who bases an opinion on one source, usually provides a very limited arguement.

[atomant]

And by the way, I absolutely support land reform, provided it is conducted within the law and in a clear and transparent manner. I also think the present land reform process is, unfortunately, irreversible and the titled owners will not get their farms back.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by atomant
And by the way, I absolutely support land reform, provided it is conducted within the law and in a clear and transparent manner. I also think the present land reform process is, unfortunately, irreversible and the titled owners will not get their farms back.

Yes- I don't see how Mugabe expropriating land without compensation is any different from what the original colonizers did.

Especially given that the excuses publicly aired- an equitable redistribution of land- is patently false, because party cronies and government stooges seem to be the ones benefitting, not poor landless peasants.


It was very funny watching some television reports showing alleged Bush War veterans occupying farmland who must have been about minus 10 or 12 years old during the last days of the Smith regime.

[Pax]

Atomant,
I absolutely agree with you and the ideas you have to make things better in Zimbabwe. I also agree that Mugabe is corrupt and needs to be removed from office by the PEOPLE of Zimbabwe. I just think that there are problems in Africa that have more than a single source of failure. It's not going to work to replace Mugabe with another tyrant or puppet.

[BlackCat]

It seems that Mr Mugabe keeps up the good work

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/4598645.stm

More than 22,000 people have been arrested in the recent crackdown on Zimbabwe's shantytowns, a police spokesman has told state media.

He said some of those made homeless when their shacks were demolished in the capital, Harare, were being sent back to their rural homes.

Residents and riot police clashed overnight in the second city, Bulawayo.

Meanwhile, the head of the World Food Programme has discussed Zimbabwe's food needs with President Robert Mugabe.

'Choking'

Millions of people are suffering from food shortages and Mr Mugabe told James Morris he would "welcome" food aid, Mr Morris said.

Minibus queue in Harare
Fuel shortages make it difficult for people to leave the cities

Last year, Mr Mugabe asked the WFP to scale down its operations, saying Zimbabweans had so much food, "they were choking".

Mr Mugabe's critics say the shortages have been caused by his seizure of white-owned land.

He denies this, blaming the weather and a Western plot to remove him from power.

Opposition leader Morgan Tsvangirai said that the crackdown had created overnight, "a massive internal refugee population in its urban areas."

"Property worth millions of dollars has gone up in flames. Families are out in the open - without jobs, without income, without shelter without support," said the leader of the Movement for Democratic Change, which gets most of its support from urban areas.

The government says it is trying to reduce crime and clean up the Zimbabwe's cities.

Market vendors and local residents fought with police for more than two hours in Bulawayo's Makholkhoba suburb on Tuesday night, after their stalls had been demolished. Scores of people were injured.

War on poverty

The crackdown on illegal settlements in Harare and other cities has led to a huge increase in rents of up to 300%, reports the state-run Herald newspaper.

Market stalls have been set on fire and shacks knocked down with sledgehammers.

"We have so far arrested a total of 22,735 people and recovered 33.5kg of gold from 47 illegal gold panners and 26,000 litres of fuel," said Assistant Commissioner Wayne Bvudzijena.

Hundreds of thousands of people are reported to be homeless following a police operation in several cities that began last week.

But fuel shortages are making it difficult for people to travel to rural areas and escape the crackdown.

The National Pastors' Conference called on the government to "engage in a war against poverty and not against the poor".

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Street vendors can be seen in most African cities. Some see them as an eyesore who contribute to petty crime. Others say they are working hard to survive in difficult conditions.