Americans, are you still proud of your soldiers?

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


I was rather more impressed that they did something to Pappas, than that they demoted Karpinski. Karpinski was a reserve General, a woman, and had scapegoat written all over. Pappas was not only an active, but was in the Intell chain of command.

Karpinski may have been a reservist and woman, but there is a higher standard expected from generals. Even if it was "only" a question of dereliction of duty rather than active participation, Pappas and Karpinski were doomed. Brigade commands outside the regular combat divisions are independent commands, so there's no tolerance for failure of leadership.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Agathon

You mean like the way a BG was demoted and relieved of command, and a Colonel was relieved of command (both career ending moves), even though it was clear that neither ordered nor authorized the activities at Abu Ghraib? They were relieved for dereliction of duty.

I'd love to see Rumsfeld in the Federal PITA prison. Everyone knows who's responsible. It's a pity a Georgian couldn't throw a bit straighter or one of them might have got his just deserts.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Everyone knows, blah blah blah.

I'm no fan of Rummy, in fact, I can't stand the ignorant, arrogant, smug c*cks*ck*r, but orders don't magically migrate from SecDef down 10 levels of the chain of command, nor does someone at Rummy's level spend more than about 30 seconds on trivial crap like details of prisoner handling in country. Gitmo is a different thing, the transfer and long-term detention of those prisoners there is part of a high-level policy process. Micromanagement of activities at Bagram and Abu Ghraib isn't.

[Q Classic]

I'm proud of our soldiers. The whole dulce et decorum est pro patri mori stuff. We're just not killing them fast enough! 4 more wars!

===

Seriously, yeah, this sucks. But mention this to John and Jane Gothic, in middle America, and you'll have a few nervous looks your way before they change the topic to how well the corn is growing, and questions why liberals like you, Tingkai, hate America.

[Drake Tungsten]

Whoa. America, the chosen people.

No need to be jealous. You can immigrate, my friend.

BTW, I can't believe some of you actually read a Tingkai post. What were you thinking?

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Oerdin


I frequently leave the toilet seat up and sometimes... I even use the last of the toilet paper without replacing it. I've been told that's wrong but I do it any way.

The crucial question is though, did you do these things to prisoners of war? If so you need to find yourself a good lawyer.

[Ted Striker]

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat


Why should we be? Compared to the widespread, systematic atrocities of the Taleban and Saddamite regimes, which directed and approved the atrocities committed by their forces, we have a few dozen individuals who violated standing orders and policy, and we are systematically investigating, charging, and prosecuting them.

Those few dozen are among several hundred thousand who have served in Iraq and Afghanistan, and they are being processed by the US military legal system.

You can ***** and whine about an investigating board recommending prosecution back in October and 7 of 27 being charged by May, but that's standard judicial and prosecutorial process. An investigating board's recommendation doesn't rely on the same level or standard of evidence needed to commence a General Court Martial prosecution under the UCMJ and the procedural requirements of the MCM. The pace and requirements are not a lot different in the US military legal system than they are with common criminals in the US Federal and state civilian criminal justice systems.

Your whole argument is we shouldn't be upset because somebody else did something much worse?

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
BTW, I can't believe some of you actually read a Tingkai post. What were you thinking?

Does he have a history of being a troll?

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by Ted Striker


Your whole argument is we shouldn't be upset because somebody else did something much worse?

Nope. You should be upset about those few that can't figure out how to act, but not say that it is the standard for all.

[Ted Striker]

First of all, DUH

I already know it is a particular group of people (although on multiple occasions and not just this one particular incident) who are doing it.

Nobody here (at least not me) is claiming this is the "standard for all." DUH

SECONDLY, when the President issues a memo that throws out the Geneva Conventions, that directly sets up situations like this to occur. "Oh, they don't matter, they are ENEMY COMBATANTS. Or, at least close enough."

[Pekka]

I don't see a reason why someone would be proud of the troops and now somehow throw it in the trash. These are again, individuals who have done some evil things, and they still are the minority. The Army does not want this kind of PR for sures, it makes the fight so much more difficult when you have to persuade people to like the US, and then this kind of **** happens. It's definitely not worth it, and this kind of crap gives birth to a new patch of terrorists every time, that attack and maim people around the world.

So it would not be logical for the Army to even want this. So this is a case of sick bastards living their own little fantasy world, where the POWs are animals, terrorists, definitely not equal humans, and thus they can be submitted to such treatment. These people should go to jail for a long long long time and if there's a heaven, they won't be the biggest candidates. Torturing POWs, no matter who they are, is totally crap, and like this article proposes, out of their own will, just to have fun? Trust me, these people do not have a future, and even if they get out of the charges, they still have no future. These kind of people don't make it. They are losers. They will always be nothing but scum, and they will be remembered as ones, and they definitely are no heroes of anyone, so they deserve everything that is coming for them.

However, US troops

sick torturing ******* individuals

[Agathon]

Gitmo is a different thing, the transfer and long-term detention of those prisoners there is part of a high-level policy process.

I wasn't excluding that. Send him to the PITA prison.

[Ted Striker]

I think Americans were more outraged by Martha Stewart than they have been of these torture scandals.

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by Ted Striker
First of all, DUH

Hadn't expected otherwise from you - guess that it's your standard defense.

I already know it is a particular group of people (although on multiple occasions and not just this one particular incident) who are doing it.

Are you saying that it is deliberately that they have done it ?

Nobody here (at least not me) is claiming this is the "standard for all." DUH

isn't that the whole purpose of this thread ? and don't you support this ?

SECONDLY, when the President issues a memo that throws out the Geneva Conventions, that directly sets up situations like this to occur. "Oh, they don't matter, they are ENEMY COMBATANTS. Or, at least close enough."

When did that happen ? If that should be a fact, how come that there are people at court because they has apparently broken the Geneva Conventions ?

[Spiffor]

What has Martha Stewart done?

[JohnT]

Tortured some egg rolls. It wasn't pretty.