Hey Swedes, how much truth to this?

[Dinner]

All the EU needs to decide is that groups they consider culturally unacceptable should be excluded then admite the eastern European countries with full rights amoung the poeple to move where they want to. Then you'll have all the culturally, religiously, and ethnically acceptable people you want.

I'm not sure this is the right policy but it would deal with the issue raised.

[Winston]

I realize they are Swedish-born children of immigrants. But I still don't see the SCB number of 300,000 making any kind of sense in the light of 1,1 mill. immigrants.

Now for the fertility rates of immigrants almost instantly dropping to a level near that of native Swedes, I don't see how you could conclude that from the graph you attached. The key is exactly that most immigrants are from countries with middle or low HDI (Human Development Index). That will mean Sweden will see a rapidly increasing number of immigrant descendants over the next generation, compared to the native population.

Here's what Caldwell said on the subject in the article (I really recommend you read it):

Of 9 million Swedes, roughly 1,080,000 are foreign-born. There are between 800,000 and 900,000 children of immigrants, between 60,000 and 100,000 illegal immigrants, and 40,000 more asylum-seekers awaiting clearance. The percentage of foreign-born is roughly equivalent to the highest percentage of immigrants the United States ever had in its history (on the eve of World War I). But there are two big differences. First is that, given the age distribution of the native and foreign populations, the percentage of immigrants' offspring will skyrocket in the next generation, even if not a single new immigrant arrives, and even if immigrant fertility rates fall to native-born levels. But second, when America had the same percentage of foreign-born, many had arrived decades before, and were largely assimilated.

[Combat Ingrid]

Winston, I have read that article before. On the same site where I found it, they also stated that Sweden had "ceded Malmö to the muslims", which was news to me. For your information, the vast majority of our immigrants come from countries with high HDI (former Yugoslavia etc) or medium HDI (middle-east in general). Those from the low HDI countries are a very small minority and it will take them several centuries to become a majority, unless they increase their fertility rates even more.

[Winston]

Fine, it's your problem, not mine. I can be just as happy no matter how many "centuries before they become a majority".

But given that they already represent 20% of your total population, that you add another 0.5%-points to that share each year from new arrivals alone, and that the immigrants are far more fertile overall than native Swedes (nobody would dispute that I think), maybe some of the people in charge of your affairs should start to take notice and not just pretend there isn't any problem at all.

BTW,

Originally posted by Combat Ingrid
On the same site where I found it, they also stated that Sweden had "ceded Malmö to the muslims", which was news to me.

I notice it was also "news to you" that there were a little bit more than 1-5% Muslims in your country, "depending on how you count".

[Odin]

PC crap.

Governments need to try to get immigrants to assimilate, I'm sorry if that might offend some people, but Europe is not the US. The US has much less of a problem with immigants because we are a nation of immigrants. Europe has much older cultures and ethnic groups.

[Pekka]

Odin, right and for example Sweden has been rather homogenic for a long time, and then this happened quite rapidly BOOM and you got so much immigrants you have no control over nothing. I'm not talking about the problematic gangs and action, which still are done by minority naturally but they are being awfully loud, I'm talking about in general no control.

If you have.. I mean it's just not a good idea to let it happen too fast. It hinders integration and before you know it, you have a situation where your own culture is under the gun. That's not cultural richness. Cultural richness is when society has many cultures co-existing, and everyone has the opportunity to appreciate them all, experience it all in one country. But that's not what's happening, the 'racist' claim makes it so, and when people submit to that. Like I said. You won't have more cultural understanding by establishing schools for arabic only with logic it would be easier to learn sweden later on. First of all that's not even true, second of all, it's clearly a claim of parents etc who do not speak Swedish and don't want to speak Swedish and will never speak Swedish, it's just a part to create areas that you can have 100% working communities where no one else is allowed and you have your own little mini-iran or whatever, and there will be tensions between 'locals' and these isolated places.

There is a difference having community inside a community that prevails it's culture and richness of it (should be the case) and it's great. But this is not it, this is like the opposite of the good idea and results.

[Winston]

This thread is starting to sink a little too conveniently out of sight for my tastes.

So how will Sweden look in 10-15 years' time, compared to other European countries who are more restrictive to immigration (well, that's pretty much all of them), and who actually recognize that some efforts have to be made to try and integrate/assimilate immigrants into society? Will it "fall apart", and how will this affect neighbouring countries.

[Zoid]

As I see it, the problem isn´t that we have too many immigrants. The problem is that unemployment rates are skyrocketing. But even if there were a lot of jobs, no one wants to hire arabs or somalians anyway. I don´t know what they think will happen if they do... In immigrant areas in the projects of Goteborg, Malmo and Stockholm unemployment rates are between 70-90% and only 30% of the population there can speak any swedish at all. It´s established fact that work leads to integration, and if there´s no work there´s no intergration. And then we get this kind of "us and them" thinking. No to mention the fact that these people become a tremendous strain on the welfare system. Thus perpetuating the predjudice that all they do is collect welfare and use the system to their own advantage...

[Pekka]

Zoidberg, yeah exactly, that's what I mean with no control. If there's no control, suddenly the people get in fast like that, then these risks of not getting a job etc increases multiple times.

[Zoid]

It´s a hard distinction between being humanitarian and seeing to your own. But seeing as Sweden isn´t a poor country (and neither is Denmark, Finland or Norway) we should be able to do our part.

[Pekka]

Sure. Of course. But with reason and own interests in mind all the time. I mean, where's the logic in 'well we are going to open the borders 100% and let everyone in who wants to come and be eligible for welfare and we give them places to live in those and those regions and build them schools so they don't have to learn the language'. In the name of humanitarism? No no no... To do it with control means good for everyone, also the immigrants who come in. To have strains and stupid things means stress for everyone, these things do not help the immigrants in Malmö etc either. They are acting against their own best, the ones who do that stupid stuff.

[Zoid]

Well, one solution for control would be to help people in their home countries. But since most of the immigrants (at least in Sweden) flee from war or persecution (political or religious) and a substantial amount come because their families are already here, it wouldn´t help. And IIRC Sweden already give more money in third world aid than any other country relative to our economy.

But another thing that really annoys me are that immigrants with degrees like doctors, nurses and the others aren´t allowed to work. And there´s a serious lack of especially medical staff in Sweden. If we accept the immigrants we must also put them to work when we need them! The truth is that swedish immigrant policy is both fickle and extremely racist.

[Winston]

*Bump*

[Odin]

Thread Necromancing:

[Winston]

It was by request.

I normally don't do requests. Unless people ask me...