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Define communism for dum 'ol Lancer

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  • Master Spiffor! I agree with nearly everything you said in your post! You are correct...it is quite possible that any of those things (and worse!) can happen, but are not the following also true:

    * A worker, no matter how unskilled, will almost NEVER find himself with only ONE job option (as your first example indicated). This MIGHT hold true for someone living in some extremely rural location with no means of transportation, no friends, no family, no means of getting away from the area. This tends to be true because there are LOTS of unskilled jobs, and by extension, lots of unskilled workers to fill them, so while your job at any particualr location may be somewhat tenuous, if you lose it, it's generally pretty easy to get another low-skill job.

    * Further, people do not exist in a vaccuum. That is to say, we are dynamic. When I was sixteen, I was only qualified to work in low skilled jobs. I did not come from a family of wealth or affluence, and yet...despite my relative lack of opportunity, I was able, all by my powerless self, bootstrap my way AWAY FROM the unskilled type job, and into a highly technical field. I did not need a state babysitter to assist me in this (no student loans taken, no nanny state paying for my education). I did not need a rich uncle's trust fund. I did it by virtue of focus and hard work. In this, I am hardly unique.

    Your second example brings up two distinct points that are worthy of much discussion. The first is the elderly worker who has been with the same company for a number of years. While this situation USED TO BE true in almost every case, in our modern economy, it is all but unheard of. Thus, is it not more likely that said worker will have job hopped repeatedly over the course of his career, and his learning skills will be a good deal sharper than your worst case scenario might indicate? Secondly, having had 30+ years of productive earning, is it beyond the realm of possibility that this worker has perhaps done even a smidgeon of retirement planning (above and beyond what pension plan he may be enrolled in, and his various other benefits)? In short, while this MAY BE some cause for concern for 0.0000000002% of a given nation's population, is that truly sufficient cause to throw out the entire economic system and rebuild it from scratch, especially when there are simpler solutions to address this specific issue?

    The essence of what I'm saying is that the problems you describe DO exist in the current system. Yes. There's no denying it.

    However....

    The specific cases you mention reside "at the margins" as it were, and impact a relatively small number of people (people who are apparently incapable of learning new skills, or elderly workers who have not planned for their impending retirement).

    I contend that this subset of people constitutes an insufficient number to rip down an entire economic sub system and rebuild it from scratch when there are other means at our disposal for caring for people that fall into these categories.

    -=Vel=-
    The list of published books grows. If you're curious to see what sort of stories I weave out, head to Amazon.com and do an author search for "Christopher Hartpence." Help support Candle'Bre, a game created by gamers FOR gamers. All proceeds from my published works go directly to the project.

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    • Originally posted by Velociryx
      Mr. Fun...that's what I get for typing on darvocet....thanks for the point-out!

      And Kid....not delusional...hell, you've said yourself on NUMEROUS occassions that you want to force people to work. You've mentioned forcibly relocating families, telling people WHERE they'll work, and on what project, and a host of other things.
      This is a lot better, because you don't have such poor allocation of labor. People are trained for the job that will contribute the most to society and they will work where they can contribute the most to society. Everyone benefits. It's much better than the chaos of capitalism where no one really know where the **** to go and what the **** to do half the time.

      Aside from that, can YOU tell me how one might keep tabs on who's exploiting whom WITHOUT a "Watcher Society"?

      Further, can you explain how such a (Watcher Based) society could be based on anything BUT fear? With neighbors seeking to turn each other in for some meager gain and to gain favor with those who watch over them?

      Didn't think so.



      -=Vel=-
      Society of laws /= watcher society.
      I drank beer. I like beer. I still like beer. ... Do you like beer Senator?
      - Justice Brett Kavanaugh

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Velociryx
        * A worker, no matter how unskilled, will almost NEVER find himself with only ONE job option (as your first example indicated). This MIGHT hold true for someone living in some extremely rural location with no means of transportation, no friends, no family, no means of getting away from the area. This tends to be true because there are LOTS of unskilled jobs, and by extension, lots of unskilled workers to fill them, so while your job at any particualr location may be somewhat tenuous, if you lose it, it's generally pretty easy to get another low-skill job.
        You're wacked.
        I drank beer. I like beer. I still like beer. ... Do you like beer Senator?
        - Justice Brett Kavanaugh

        Comment


        • This is a lot better, because you don't have such poor allocation of labor. People are trained for the job that will contribute the most to society and they will work where they can contribute the most to society. Everyone benefits. It's much better than the chaos of capitalism where no one really know where the **** to go and what the **** to do half the time.

          IF the goal is a just society that promotes freedom for its people, then PLEASE tell me how forced labor camps are "better" for this "free" society?

          A society of "laws" that seeks to enslave the populace "for the greater good" is certainly an excellent foundation for a fear-based society JUST as I described.

          Why? Because people don't WANT to be forced into your labor camps. Take a poll, even among your own comrades. I doubt you'll find many willing to take one for the team in that fashion. And they (the people you mean to enslave) will be AFRAID of your labor camps and the folks who have the power to put them there.

          And you call ME whacked? *shakes head* You're a scary guy.

          Truly.

          -=Vel=-
          (especially given the FACT that all you have to do is pick up the paper on ANY day of the week and behold the vast numbers of "mcjobs" in the classified section to see the truth of what I'm saying about the common nature OF those sorts of jobs....jesus, it's not like the proof's not readily available, but go ahead and live in fantasy land if it pleases you).
          The list of published books grows. If you're curious to see what sort of stories I weave out, head to Amazon.com and do an author search for "Christopher Hartpence." Help support Candle'Bre, a game created by gamers FOR gamers. All proceeds from my published works go directly to the project.

          Comment


          • Kid...one question regarding your last post. Do you understand that human constructs/inventions (such as electricity and economic systems) exist to serve the needs of human beings, and not...I repeat NOT the other way around?

            The reason I ask this question is that by virtue of your utopian society being predicated on forced work camps because it is "more efficient" and therefore, "better," you realize that you are putting living, breathing human beings into bondage to service the artificial construct that is the economic system, and by extension, the state which controls it utterly.

            You do realize this, yes?

            Further, do you not see the contradiction that occurs each time you talk about your "just" society AND your forced labor camps in the same breath, or do you see no disconnect between the two? If not, I would be curious to hear some explanation as to how the two can co-exist.

            I'm sure your comrades might even be curious about that.

            -=Vel=-
            The list of published books grows. If you're curious to see what sort of stories I weave out, head to Amazon.com and do an author search for "Christopher Hartpence." Help support Candle'Bre, a game created by gamers FOR gamers. All proceeds from my published works go directly to the project.

            Comment


            • Vel:
              1. I wouldn't say that there are LOTS of unskilled jobs. Actually, I'm looking for unskilled jobs these days, and there definitely aren't tat many, at least in Stuttgart.

              When I look for work on the internet, I find only proposal for skilled jobs. When I go to the job-center, most unskilled jobs are paid on a monthly 400€ basis (My survival income is 450€).

              I have worked for 6€ a hour, and I felt it was very little. However, I've accepted to work again for the same people without demanding more, simply because they could easily find a replacement for me if I got to pissy. I have seen an offer on a 4€ per hour basis, and I'd have taken it, simply because I need the money (I was busy on the days where the job was to take place tho).
              "I have been reading up on the universe and have come to the conclusion that the universe is a good thing." -- Dissident
              "I never had the need to have a boner." -- Dissident
              "I have never cut off my penis when I was upset over a girl." -- Dis

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Kidicious


                That doesn't make sense. The theory is that there is overabundance and people only have to work as much as they want to. Stop making stuff up.
                Invisible hand or coercion is what I said. You arugument here is a form of invisible hand. However, if you consider that communism reduces everyone to subsistence and not abundance, the invisible hand does not work.
                http://tools.wikimedia.de/~gmaxwell/jorbis/JOrbisPlayer.php?path=John+Williams+The+Imperial+M arch+from+The+Empire+Strikes+Back.ogg&wiki=en

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Velociryx
                  PS: For the record, of all the proposals I've ever read, Spiffor's seems far and away the most palatable. The only big thing I take issue with is the fact that I can bust my arse for ten years writing a book, but the moment I hire my first full time employee (who wasn't around for ANY of that other stuff during the past ten years), he gets an automatic 50% stake in my company).

                  I'm doubting that the same thing would apply if we were talking straight capital investments. That is to say, if I invest a quarter of a million dollars to start a business and my partner invests eighty-five cents, I doubt you'd give him an equal say in the business, so why should my labor, over and above the new guy's not count?

                  But that's another story...

                  -V.
                  Vel, details, details. Commies are interested in equality, period. Justice and common sense are irrelevant. Commies in a sense are like the Borg. Single minded and very stupid.
                  http://tools.wikimedia.de/~gmaxwell/jorbis/JOrbisPlayer.php?path=John+Williams+The+Imperial+M arch+from+The+Empire+Strikes+Back.ogg&wiki=en

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                  • Spiffor: Depends on how you define the term and where you're looking.

                    General office work is technically "semi-skilled" except that it takes all of 30 minutes of study and perhaps a week of practice IF you don't already know how to type to obtain said skills. I know this to be true, because I've taught a dozen or so people enough office skills in under an hour to get them a basic office job (all of whom already knew how to type at least 30wpm).

                    While it's certainly true that some areas have a more abundant wellspring of low to semi-skilled jobs, I've never run across a city that didn't have several handfuls at once, and generally found a quite easy time getting work.

                    In fact, it's hard NOT to land a no or semi-skilled job if you put your mind to finding one. When I was much younger, and those were the kinds of jobs I was looking for, I used a multi-pronged approach that included standard walkins and app filings, knocking on doors to ASK if there was anything I could do (surprisingly, this landed me a TON of jobs that were entirely unadvertised...small businesses are generally hurting for help, but can't afford to advertise that fact), and temp/contract agencies (really easy way to get lots of good job offers).

                    I still do that to this day, in fact...using my old contacts to land the occassional at-home data entry job to pick up a few extra bucks when needed. Very handy.

                    Ned: I don't think any of the posters who have contributed here are stupid, but I do think that most are misguided, and overly caught up with the notion of inventing a wholly new system when there are other, easier remedies that could be applied and be just as effective, if not moreso.

                    SOME of the ideas fronted here though, if selected by the communist party leadership for enactment, would require a level of attrocity so vast that it'd make Hitler and Stalin look like choir boys, and THAT is scary....

                    -=Vel=-
                    The list of published books grows. If you're curious to see what sort of stories I weave out, head to Amazon.com and do an author search for "Christopher Hartpence." Help support Candle'Bre, a game created by gamers FOR gamers. All proceeds from my published works go directly to the project.

                    Comment


                    • My God, is it just me or is Kid turing in to a Stalinist?

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                      • Well, Vel, when the left criticizes someone for believing in God and the Bible as being stupid (because it is full of contradictions and denials of plain truths in many cases (evolution for example)), I think they should also be open to the same criticism when their philosophy suffers from the same problem.
                        http://tools.wikimedia.de/~gmaxwell/jorbis/JOrbisPlayer.php?path=John+Williams+The+Imperial+M arch+from+The+Empire+Strikes+Back.ogg&wiki=en

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                        • Ahhh, I see where you're going with it, and you make a valid point.

                          Nonetheless....I've held enough talks with the three reds who've chimed in at length so far to know that they're not nuts.

                          Misguided maybe, but not stupid...

                          -=Vel=-
                          The list of published books grows. If you're curious to see what sort of stories I weave out, head to Amazon.com and do an author search for "Christopher Hartpence." Help support Candle'Bre, a game created by gamers FOR gamers. All proceeds from my published works go directly to the project.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Velociryx
                            The reason I ask this question is that by virtue of your utopian society being predicated on forced work camps because it is "more efficient" and therefore, "better," you realize that you are putting living, breathing human beings into bondage to service the artificial construct that is the economic system, and by extension, the state which controls it utterly.
                            It would be nothing like that. It's more like that now.
                            I drank beer. I like beer. I still like beer. ... Do you like beer Senator?
                            - Justice Brett Kavanaugh

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Odin
                              My God, is it just me or is Kid turing in to a Stalinist?
                              When the working class works for themselves its not slavery. You're falling for Vel's sensational bull****.
                              Last edited by Kidlicious; May 21, 2005, 11:43.
                              I drank beer. I like beer. I still like beer. ... Do you like beer Senator?
                              - Justice Brett Kavanaugh

                              Comment


                              • So let me make SURE I get this right, cos I definitely don't want to put words in your mouth:

                                You want to create a system where people are FORCED TO LABOR for you and your ruling elite (ie, the state tells you where you will work, and what job you will do--which, by extension means telling you where you will live, cos if I'm living in SC, and Kidicious Prime's goons tell me I'm off to work in the coal mines of Virginia, methinks that'd be a bit of a commute from here...thus, I would be forcibly relocated as well).

                                You want to create a system where people have no power of negotiation whatsoever (you get paid what the state SAYS you get paid, and you LIKE it, by golly!) (I mean hell, there may be some people who can't negotiate as well as others, so of course, the obvious solution is to reduce everyone to the lowest common denominator and remove the ability to negotiate from EVERYONE so it's all nice and fair. Equal. Right Kid? Am I learning now?)

                                You want to create a system of Justice for the people you enslave. A Democratic society (so long as nobody votes to change how your utopia works, or to free themselves from the bondage you have imposed....what happens then...do we demand a do over, or just "deal with them"--in the kindest way possible of course...I know that none of the revolutions mentioned here would EVER harm a hair on anyone's wee widdle head!)

                                So essentially, you're espousing state-mandated slavery for the entire populace (except for the watchers and the party bosses, who would have to be above such maltreatment in order to do their jobs properly, of course), and this is....more like it is now?

                                See...this is where I get confused, cos if it's already like that now, then why do you want to make it more like it already is? Are you an elitist or something? (sorry, just had to use a Kid phrase there! )

                                Seriously....you have said (more than once) that you want to force people to work.

                                In order to do that, you NEED some sort of infrastructure to carry out and enforce your will.

                                Since the state will control the economy, it is logical to assume that the state will also control the means to enforce your will.

                                That being the case, the people are NOT working for themselves, but working because the state tells them to.

                                This ain't exactly rocket science Kideroo...it's what you SAID.

                                So if the people are being forced to work by the state, how is that freedom again?

                                Still waiting for the answers to my other questions too!

                                -=Vel=-
                                The list of published books grows. If you're curious to see what sort of stories I weave out, head to Amazon.com and do an author search for "Christopher Hartpence." Help support Candle'Bre, a game created by gamers FOR gamers. All proceeds from my published works go directly to the project.

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