How do you think the muslin world would respond to quoranflushers.com?

[MrFun]

I disagree -- Islam is not the causation in of itself. It's the twisting and distortion of Islam by extreme, fanatical Muslims that is the problem.


Which leads to suppression of women, freedom of religion, and terrorist attacks.

[JohnT]

The Koran is the revealed word of God and changes, even translations, are immoral.

The Koran calls for the subjegation of women to men, the death of the infidel, the hereditary theocracies.

Islam is the causation, MrFun.

And considering how much oppression you claim at the hands of the Christian Right, I don't see you defending Christianity with the sort of "tolerance" you want so desperately to give Moslems.

[MrFun]

So because the Bible calls for slavery, suppression of women, and all the other bad stuff, Christianity in of itself is a causation for that is bad in this world too??

[JohnT]

But we, as a society, are beyond the Bible as THE guidepost (moral, ethically, governmentally) to our civilization.

The Islamic middle east is not beyond the Koran.

Surely you know this.

[Odin]

Originally posted by JohnT


What Ves is saying (and he can correct me if I'm wrong) is that he's sick of these backward idiots being so backwards and nobody calling them on their backwardness.

Some dip**** school board in the middle of the 32nd most populated state in the US has a proposal to teach Evilution (yuck-yuck) and the internet is full of outrage at the entirety of America. However, have a religion where the physical, psychological, and spiritual subjegation of women is part and parcel with Gods Law and we're supposed to be "tolerant" and "understanding."

**** 'em. The Islamic world needs to get with the goddamned program and learn it's not 1236ad anymore.

[chequita guevara]

Death to Islam! And Christianity! And Judaism! And Budaism! And . . well, Taoism is more a philosophy than a religion.

[JohnT]

Here's a book for ya, MrFun:

What Went Wrong? : The Clash Between Islam and Modernity in the Middle East by Bernard Lewis, one of the West's pre-eminient authorities on Middle Eastern history.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by JohnT
The Koran is the revealed word of God and changes, even translations, are immoral.

Same thing holds true for the Bible for many Christian fundies.

The Koran calls for the subjegation of women to men, the death of the infidel, the hereditary theocracies.

The Bible calls for the same thing. So what?

The Koran also preaches tolerance of those who share belief in the same god (jews, Christians). Just like the Bible, there's conflicting information, and different groups bring different interpretations to it due to their existing prejudices and cultural beliefs.

Islam is the causation, MrFun.

Then we can say Christianity is the causation of their fundamental lunatic actions, yes? If not, why the double standard?

And considering how much oppression you claim at the hands of the Christian Right, I don't see you defending Christianity with the sort of "tolerance" you want so desperately to give Moslems.

Mr. Fun IS a Christian. He's professed so many times, so I think that would be itself an indication he gives it greater weight than Islam.

The Christian Right != all of Christianity, so that's a huge fallacy in your argument right there. By the same token, the Islamic fundies != all of Islam. The overwhelming majority of Muslims are tolerant, loving people, just as Christians are.

So, I'd love to see some examples of these evil leftists who trash Christian reactionaries but think Muslim reactionaries are just spiffy. I've never seen anyone who believes this, so I think this is just a typical strawman created by conservatives. Where's the beef?

[JohnT]

Then we can say Christianity is the causation of their fundamental lunatic actions, yes? If not, why the double standard?

I don't have any problem in saying that. No double standard here.

So, I'd love to see some examples of these evil leftists who trash Christian reactionaries but think Muslim reactionaries are just spiffy. I've never seen anyone who believes this, so I think this is just a typical strawman created by conservatives. Where's the beef?

This isn't a Right/Left issue, Boris, but nice try anyway. And you're calling out strawmen here?

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by JohnT
But we, as a society, are beyond the Bible as THE guidepost (moral, ethically, governmentally) to our civilization.

The Islamic middle east is not beyond the Koran.

Surely you know this.

Surely you know that the middle east isn't the only place where Islam is a majority religion, yes? And that even in the Middle East, there are varying degrees to which the countries observe strict Islamism, yes? Let's talk about Turkey, post-Suharto Indonesia, Mali, Bangladesh and Jordan

http://islamlib.com/en/page.php?page=article&id=597

Clearly, these Muslims don't see a contradiction between their religion and liberal democratic values. They may not be as interesting and easy to pigeon-hole as terrorists are, but they offer a quite compelling voice.

[chequita guevara]

I'm with JT here, despite my lame attempts at a troll earlier. Islam is a far more dangerous religion, even if Xianity is more of threat at home.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by JohnT
This isn't a Right/Left issue, Boris, but nice try anyway. And you're calling out strawmen here?

Oh sure it isn't. The right has been using that language against the left for years now, as if the left "loves" Islam. Coulter's been spewing crap like that forever. Attempts to disassociate it are naive.

Islam is a far more dangerous religion, even if Xianity is more of threat at home.

That Xianity is "more of a threat" here and is much more relevant to our lives is precisely why the Kansas Board of Ed hearings got so much press. I don't see why it's so inexplicable that the threats more relevant to our culture and lives are more frequently addressed.

That's why arguments like these are often futile because people often utterly lack perspective on the issues. The notion that Christianity is somehow under seige in our country is ludicrous. When was the last time a non-Christian was elected president? Hell, we have a president now who is probably the most overtly religious in decades who was swept in last year on the shoulders of Christian voters. Poor, poor souls!

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov

Mr. Fun IS a Christian. He's professed so many times, so I think that would be itself an indication he gives it greater weight than Islam.

The Christian Right != all of Christianity, so that's a huge fallacy in your argument right there. By the same token, the Islamic fundies != all of Islam. The overwhelming majority of Muslims are tolerant, loving people, just as Christians are.

So, I'd love to see some examples of these evil leftists who trash Christian reactionaries but think Muslim reactionaries are just spiffy. I've never seen anyone who believes this, so I think this is just a typical strawman created by conservatives. Where's the beef?

JohnT, I was going to post some more in response to your posts again, but Boris kinda beat me to some good points.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Vesayen
I am not a racist and I don't hate muslims but the outrage over one sentence in a newspaper with an unreputable reputation......

It already is a holy war, so yeah, why not?

The population of the middle east have been brainwashed by a mix of fundamentalist religion and oppresive leaders who use us as a scape goat for all their troubles.

Actually, most of them haven't. If the majority really got riled and bent out of shape, we'd be in for a scheißsturm of truly amazing scale.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov

That Xianity is "more of a threat" here.

No it's not. You need to go read some more Chick Tracts.