FOX says Mexicans in the US do the work blacks don't want.......

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by Master Zen


You did? Your argument was based on the most biased source imaginable and not once did you argue any of the half-dozen links I posted to repubable academic sources which you didn't even bother to read.

I have better things to do in life than argue nonsense for so long.

None of the links you posted were relevant, and screaming "bias" is not rebuttal. Until you can come back with a decent response, I also have better things to do than argue.

[Jaguar]

Edit: Robert Byrd threadjack moved to its own thread. Ignore.

[Imran Siddiqui]

It is a bargain for the employers of the illegals. What makes you think the savings are being passed on to you?

As MZ said, basic economics. If your competitors are charging a certain price and your costs are cheaper because you are using illegals, you will undercut the price. If not, then you are a fool.

[LTEC!]

Illegal immigrants as a norm, wil not use any type of social service nor approach any authority that will get them deported...since it is not in their best interest.

They however spend their money in products and services and pay taxes. Either way, the US wins.

[Drake Tungsten]

So, the Democrats have both the record for minority appointments and the largest contingent of minorities in Congress, including in leadership position, but it's "tokenism" because they haven't appointed a black secretary of state? Yup, a pathetic argument on your part.

I guess it's good that I never accused anyone of engaging in tokenism, then. Only you have been dumb enough to do that...

I'm sure all of those cabinet appointees and judges will be happy to know you dismiss their roles as unimportant. Jesus, Drake, is there anyone you won't insult to make cheap shots?

I don't see how it's a cheap shot to point out that the Surgeon General is a little less important than the Secretary of State. Save the faux outrage for someone who cares.

[Verto]

Not bothering to read anything in this thread, why is this any more offensive/controversial than everyone saying that Mexicans in the US do the work whites don't want?

What makes this special?

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Jaguar
Boris, Robert Byrd is still a racist. Give it up. He's a former member of the KKK, and he still uses the N word on national TV decades later.

Yeah, you were claiming a while ago that he voted against Condi Rice's confirmation because she was black. I pointed out how that was a load of horse****, since he had a) previously confirmed numerous black appointees, even Republican ones (Powell, Paige), and b) he had plenty of reasons (i.e. Iraq) for his dislike of Rice that had nothing to do with race.

I'm sure there's some racism in Byrd (there is in everyone, though). But his professional record on civil rights issues as of late has been pretty good. And the things that people cast against him (like your examples here) are BS. The KKK membership was 60 years ago, and as I've shown, the intent of his using "******" on TV in 2001 was not racist. Byrd looks to me like someone who has changed a lot over the years--sometimes slowly and/or reluctantly, though. I'd give him a lot more credit than I would someone like Helms, or Duke.

[Jaguar]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov


Yeah, you were claiming a while ago that he voted against Condi Rice's confirmation because she was black. I pointed out how that was a load of horse****, since he had a) previously confirmed numerous black appointees, even Republican ones (Powell, Paige), and b) he had plenty of reasons (i.e. Iraq) for his dislike of Rice that had nothing to do with race.

I'm sure there's some racism in Byrd (there is in everyone, though). But his professional record on civil rights issues as of late has been pretty good. And the things that people cast against him (like your examples here) are BS. The KKK membership was 60 years ago, and as I've shown, the intent of his using "******" on TV in 2001 was not racist. Byrd looks to me like someone who has changed a lot over the years--sometimes slowly and/or reluctantly, though. I'd give him a lot more credit than I would someone like Helms, or Duke.

See ye big thread.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
I guess it's good that I never accused anyone of engaging in tokenism, then. Only you have been dumb enough to do that...

Afraid not. The only time where I mentioned tokenism was with Watts, and I was only relaying what he felt of his role in the GOP's congressional caucus.

I don't see how it's a cheap shot to point out that the Surgeon General is a little less important than the Secretary of State. Save the faux outrage for someone who cares.

Changing your story now. What you said:

Please note that I said "important posts". Giving appointed minorities real responsibility shows the Bush Administration isn't just engaging in tokenism.

So which of these posts are unimportant and don't carry "real responsibility," as you explicitley state:

Secretary of Commerce
Secretary of Agriculture
Secretary of Housing and Urban Development
Secretary of Transportation
Secretary of Energy

Do tell.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Master Zen
Prove it. And use a real academic source this time around and not an anti-immigration racist organization dubbing as a think-tank.

Mexicans go to Ariz. for medical help
By Dennis Wagner
USA TODAY

Foreigners' bills often aren't paid; financial aid may come for hospitals feeling pinch

BISBEE, Ariz. — Antonio Valenzuela Gomez, a retired factory worker who boasts 49 grandchildren, lifts his shirt to show the giant scar where American doctors cut into his chest a year ago.

Gomez, 79, was at his house in the dusty Mexican border town of Naco near here when his heart began to fail. There is no hospital in that part of Mexico, so family members loaded Gomez in a car and drove him a short distance to the U.S. checkpoint.

An ambulance arrived from the Arizona side and rushed Gomez 7 miles to Copper Queen Community Hospital here. Emergency room workers stabilized him and sent him 80 miles north to Tucson Medical Center, where heart surgery was performed.

Gomez, who spent three weeks in U.S. hospitals, thinks the bill was about $20,000 — likely a fraction of the actual cost. He offers gratitude along with small monthly payments that will never cover the expense. “They saved my life,” he says. “They treated me well.”

Along the border from Chula Vista, Calif., to Brownsville, Texas, U.S. hospitals serve as a medical safety net for undocumented immigrants and residents of northern Mexico. Each year, their care costs American medical centers, consumers and taxpayers hundreds of millions of dollars. During 2002, 38 Arizona medical centers surveyed by the Arizona Hospital and Healthcare Association reported losses on foreign-national patients of $153 million.

After years of pressure from the health care industry, the federal government last week announced a plan to repay hospitals across the USA for up to 30% of the unpaid bills they rack up for such patients from now through 2008. The payback could total $1 billion. Arizona hospitals stand to receive $45 million a year.

Hospitals are required by law to treat all emergency patients, regardless of nationality or legal status.

Jim Dickson, chief executive officer at Copper Queen hospital, says he is happy to care for anyone who is sick or injured. But about 15% of his patients are poor Mexican nationals, and financial losses have been excruciating for a little hospital in Bisbee (population 6,000).

“We had super-deficits the last two years,” says Dickson, who solved his budget crisis by laying off about 35 of the hospital's 130 employees and eliminating medical services such as the long-term care center. “This has had a very negative impact on our hospital.”

Arizona has been particularly burdened since the mid-1990s, when U.S. border crackdowns in Texas and California began funneling illegal immigrants and drug smugglers to the state's 350-mile border with Mexico. Last year, Arizona accounted for 52% of the 1.1 million illegals captured by Border Patrol agents in the Southwest.

Arizona's 5.7 million population includes an estimated 500,000 undocumented immigrants. The nationwide total is about 11 million, the Pew Hispanic Center estimates.

University Medical Center, a non-profit hospital in Tucson, will spend an estimated $12 million this year on unreimbursed emergency care for foreign nationals, hospital president Greg Pivirotto says. “It's a drain that hurts your ability to render care.”

Because UMC has the only trauma center near the southern Arizona border, it treats severely injured patients who require expensive care. The hospital counted about 5,000 emergency patients in April, including 100 foreigners.

“It's a fairly small percentage, but it's a huge cost,” Pivirotto says.

Hospitals use international collection companies to pursue payments. Some patients such as Gomez pay as much as they can. But most costs go uncollected.

Although public attention has focused on unpaid medical care for illegal immigrants, Pivirotto says four-fifths of the foreign nationals in his hospital entered the USA with legitimate paperwork — visas, 72-hour passes or “compassionate entry” permits granted in medical emergencies.

The percentage is likely higher at places like Copper Queen hospital, located in this hillside mining town. To the south, Naco overflows with would-be immigrants, smugglers and others clogged at the border. Dickson, the hospital administrator, says Naco's true population is triple the official count of 7,500. Four Border Patrol agents guarded the border here a decade ago. Today, there are 550.

But Naco still has no hospital, and local clinics lack radiology labs, emergency rooms and basic equipment.

“Even the federale who gets shot, he comes here,” Dickson says. “The mayor, el presidente, will tell you that they count on us for care, because we're their local hospital.”

Francisco Murrieta, an aide to Naco Mayor Vicente Torres, confirms that townsfolk rely on the Bisbee hospital when serious injuries or illnesses strike.

“If somebody has a big medical need, they want the best attention,” he says.

Dickson says he sympathizes with his southern neighbors and tries to help by contributing medical gear to Naco's health clinics.

“I smuggled a defibrillator across the border in an ambulance because they had no way of measuring your heart,” he says. “We gave them an ambulance because they were transporting patients in the backs of cars.”

Dickson says some pregnant women from Naco used to cross the border after going into labor, obtaining the best medical care plus citizenship for a newborn child.

That's no longer a problem because financial losses forced Copper Queen to close its maternity ward.

[Drake Tungsten]

Afraid not. The only time where I mentioned tokenism was with Watts, and I was only relaying what he felt of his role in the GOP's congressional caucus.

My apologies. You, GePap, che and company kind of meld together in my mind...

So which of these posts are unimportant and don't carry "real responsibility," as you explicitley state:

Secretary of Commerce
Secretary of Agriculture
Secretary of Housing and Urban Development
Secretary of Transportation
Secretary of Energy

All of them. Do you really think the Secretary of Agriculture is an important post?

Changing your story now.

No, I'm not.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
Secretary of Commerce
Secretary of Agriculture
Secretary of Housing and Urban Development
Secretary of Transportation
Secretary of Energy[/q]

All of them. Do you really think the Secretary of Agriculture is an important post?

I do, I think they are all important posts. I'm sure the people who held them think so, too. Sorry, but Secretary of State isn't the be-all and end-all of cabinet positions. You must have a remarkable ignorance of government if you believe these positions are not important.

Changing your story now.

No, I'm not.

Now you've been caught dissembling. You originally said they weren't "real" positions of responsibility, but then tried to claim you said they just weren't as important.

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten

All of them. Do you really think the Secretary of Agriculture is an important post?

Yeah -- overseeing the regulation of something as frivulous and non-essential as production of food is certainly not important.

[Master Zen]

Although public attention has focused on unpaid medical care for illegal immigrants, Pivirotto says four-fifths of the foreign nationals in his hospital entered the USA with legitimate paperwork — visas, 72-hour passes or “compassionate entry” permits granted in medical emergencies.

You still have not proved that the cost of immigration is bigger than the benefit.

[Master Zen]

What I find most misleading about the arguments of the anti-immigrationists is how they present their data solely as an immediate cost-benefit scenario and never as an inter-generational issue. This would be akin to refusing an investment on the grounds that it will not pay itself off immediately. Precisely because of this, I think the big mistake these people make (deliberately of course) is that they choose to view the issue as a cost, not as an investment.

Let's put it this way. From a purely immediate cost-benefit analysis, the cost of illiegal immigration regarding public services like education and health might very well be higher (though not significantly so) than the immediate benefit of consumer cost reduction and producer benefits.

The deficit in this equation is minimal. Most studies I've read show it at about 1% of the total federal budget deficit, in other words, hardly the main culprit of the deficit (blame defense for having the biggest budget burden... oh wait, Righties never blame defense).

Now we look upon this form another perspective: an intergenerational point of view. By law, any children born in the US are legal citizens. Thus, the ensuing offspring of an immigrant family will be legal citizens. They produce a net gain to the economy since they are legally obtaining public services and are contributing to the economy with higher wages than their illegal parents, and consuming a much higher proportion of that wage, both relatively and absolutely in the US economy. Morseo most studies show that 2nd generation immigrants are far less likely to send back money to their country of origin or if they do, in far lesser amounts. The economy has therefore gained a new productive citizen which was not tabulated into the cost-benefit analysis because it was limited to a single-generational model. Even children who obtained education illegaly benefit the country since the positive marginal effect of each extra year of education reflects itself in their expected wages and these children have much better opportunites at eventually becoming legal citizens.

Last but not least you have the opportunity cost which NO anti-immigrationist will ever dare mention. What is this? Take adult immigrants, and even most underage ones. Practically all of them have obtained some degree of education, very likely a primary one and perhaps a few years of secondary. Let's just leave it at primary here. These people are working in the US, benefiting the US economy as consumers, yet the US didn't pay a cent for their education, Mexico did. Why isn't therefore, the opportunity cost of getting people in the country with free education ever tabulated in immigration cost-benefit analysis? Because it suddenly swings the balance into a benefit.

How you like them apples?

-MZ