About warning labels on book like in the US

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
they already are. Thats why theyre so paranoid.

I was under the impression that they were making leaps and bounds? I thought that a great many people converted to "born-again" Christianty*? That the fundies were being very successful at making the US question biological progress (evolution, stem cells) and question quite a chunk oif the social progress that occured in the recent decades (abortion, gay recognition)?


*Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I consider that nearly all "Born Again" Christians are stereotypical converts, who'll shove their new beliefs down everybody's throat, and have no tolerance for other belief systems. A Mr Nice Guy if you prefer. I was under the impression that more reasonable converts weren't called "born again".

[Kuciwalker]

In today's US, the Christian fundies are one of the strongest, if not THE strongest social group.

Eh, no.

[lord of the mark]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by Spiffor

I was under the impression that they were making leaps and bounds? I thought that a great many people converted to "born-again" Christianty*? That the fundies were being very successful at making the US question biological progress (evolution, stem cells) and question quite a chunk oif the social progress that occured in the recent decades (abortion, gay recognition)?

while their churches have grown relative to mainstream Protestant churches, i doubt they have grown by leaps and bounds. They were simply less visible 50 years ago, as they culture was not so much at odds with theirs, and they tended to vote their economic or racial interests.

Stem cell research is something bothers at least a few people who are not fundies. In any case its not the heart of biological progress (id say the human genome project is much more important) but its the way in our system that groups that feel intensely can exercise disproportionate influence on a minor issue.

And outside of Kansas, i see no success by them on evolution - and even they all they are doing is trying to get some stupid stickers put on textbooks.


Abortion has been a matter of dispute in this country for decades. Theres never been a society wide consensus in support of it. Nonetheless the antiabortion folks are still in the counter culture on this. Even if Roe v Wade were overturned and states got to make their own laws on it, probably two thirds or more would allow abortion. And as of today, abortion, even to the end of the second trimester, is legal in EVERY state. Folks who see it as murder feel VERY imposed upon.

Gay recognition has been increasing in recent years. Prior to the late '90s not a single state recognized gay marriage in any form. Now several recognize gay unions. 30 years ago fundies were opposed to laws for equal employment rights for gays. Now theyre trying to stop gay marriage. A retreat.

And theres more to society than laws. Gays are recognized positively in our media in ways unheard of even 15 years ago. Sex, attacks on authority, etc pervade the media. I can tell you, you dont see many "christian" tv shows in the US unless you get a christian network on cable.

There may be a difference in perspective here - US media still have a vague deference to "civil religion", an overall red, white and blue monotheism that seems outlandishly religious to Europeans (God bless America and all that) thats not particularly affiliated with Fundamentalism, and doesnt mean they dont feel themselves a counter culture.

*Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I consider that nearly all "Born Again" Christians are stereotypical converts, who'll shove their new beliefs down everybody's throat, and have no tolerance for other belief systems. A Mr Nice Guy if you prefer. I was under the impression that more reasonable converts weren't called "born again".

Technically "born again" is a basic concept in all Calvinist groups, IIUC. It refers to the notion that for salvation a person must find grace individually, being reborn in christ - it gets to calvinist views of salvation. Jimmy Carter was called a "born again" and he was certainly tolerant of other religions.


POTM has a friend who goes to a Baptist church. Shes a sweet girl, and has joined us for Shabbat dinner on several occasions. Her parents are most respectful of us - my impression is theyre happy theyre child has found a friend whos family is RELIGIOUS, and who doesnt dress sluttishly, like so many of the youngsters do these days.

Now if we started lecturing to them on abortion or gay marriage, they might not be so happy. But we dont, as we dont want to be lectured to (hey, isnt that the golden rule?)

[Spiffor]

Thanks for the answers. Most informative

Originally posted by lord of the mark
POTM has a friend who goes to a Baptist church. Shes a sweet girl, and has joined us for Shabbat dinner on several occasions. Her parents are most respectful of us - my impression is theyre happy theyre child has found a friend whos family is RELIGIOUS, and who doesnt dress sluttishly, like so many of the youngsters do these days.

Just out of curiosity, how old is POTM? I was under the impression that she was something like 6 years old...

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Spiffor
Thanks for the answers. Most informative


Just out of curiosity, how old is POTM? I was under the impression that she was something like 6 years old...

shes 13.

[Spiffor]

ok, thanks. I was fearing that children were already wearing slutty clothes

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Winston
Well he certainly has a way of royally pissing me off with his snide personal accusations and derogatory style towards people with a different view from his own.

no he doesn't -- I was being sincere in complimenting Boris's post

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Spiffor
ok, thanks. I was fearing that children were already wearing slutty clothes

They are.

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Spiffor
and they want to stomp out lifestyles in opposition to their beliefs (homosexuals).

I know you and I are basically on the same side here, but this reference to "homosexual lifestyle" is a real pet peeve of mine.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
They are.

Now I can't say that I like it.

But then again, I have been becoming a reactionary in the past weeks.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by MrFun
I know you and I are basically on the same side here, but this reference to "homosexual lifestyle" is a real pet peeve of mine.

In the eyes of a homophobe, there's a "homosexual lifestyle" as soon as two men or two women are holding hands or kissing.

(Besides, some vocal members of the gay community try to create a gay identity, with its own sub-culture, and lifestyle - not all gays follow the creation of such a collective identity, but the attempt is threre, and can be seen)

[MrFun]

Ok, and yes, I agree with you on this -- the stereotype of "homosexual lifestyle" is not only reinforced by homophobes, but also by the more radically, in appropriately out-spoken activists among gays and lesbians.


Both are doing gays and lesbians a disfavor.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
a few international human rights groups like Medecins San Frontieres (are they now to be considered "leftists"? - Im sure some loony righties think so) were - I cant recall anyone else of any prominence, left, right, or center, calling for action wrt to the Taliban. Other than the Northern Alliance types themselves.

Um, how about NOW and Amnesty International?

The focus on the evolution battle is a matter of importance to NON-Parents - its not about education, its a symbolic kultur-kampf on both sides, that is distracting from real issues.

The leaders of Kansas Citizens for Science are all parents of Kansas school children and would heartily disagree that it's not a real issue. It's not isolated from other things you mentioned (and nobody claimed it was more important), but it's something that must be addressed. If you would look up the "Wedge Document" by Dembski et al., you'll see that this is just part of "wedging" their foot in the door for religious doctrine. Their goal is also to drive a wedge between laypeople and science as much as possible by setting up this false dichotomy that science and religion are not compatible.

I strongly urge you to check out www.pandasthumb.org and explore the issues behind this, because dismissing as being so minor is the first mistake the fundies want to be made.

By the way, was it mentioned that the sticker in the OP was a joke? You really have no sense of humor, do you?

Calling your political opponents, of right or left, Taliban or equivalent is just McCarthyism.

And when did I ever do this?