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  • #31
    I think Catholicism and Main stream Protestantism, and even Judaism and Buddism and Islam have much to say in the American dialogue. The media likes to focus on the fundies. And the more we have left the public square naked of spirituality, the more the fundies have filled it.

    As for the Rabbi, I think he was clear enough. If he opposes social darwinism, and accepts the truth of Darwinism, how could he identify the two as the SAME (rather than historically linked)

    As it happens there is a discussion at the Society for the Advancement of Judaism in New York on a related topic. Here are some quotes they assembled as a prelude:

    "SHABBAT LUNCH: EVOLUTIONARY PSYCHOLOGY AND ETHICS
    What a book a Devil’s Chaplain might write on the clumsy, wasteful and blundering low and horribly cruel works of nature!

    --Charles Darwin (in an 1856 letter)

    Thus, from the war of nature, from famine and death, the most exalted object which we are capable of conceiving, namely, the production of the higher animals, directly follows. There is grandeur in this view of life...from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved.

    --Charles Darwin, The Origin of the Species (1859)

    The world is not characterless, it acts with a uniformity that gives meaning to its existence ... The salvation for which man strives is to live in rapport with that meaning.

    --JAC, p. 461

    Just as the magnetic needle is the source of our knowledge of the earth’s magnetism, so is man’s salvational behavior the source of our knowledge about God...(this requires) no blind leap into the dark.

    --QJA, pgs. 80,88

    Jewish religion maintains the eventual triumph of justice over brute force as the very essence of faith in God.

    --BVJR, p.43

    There is no reason to hope that eventually all manner of things will be well... The kind of order and complexity produced by evolution has nothing to do with the right or the good. Moral ideas can not be part of the scheme until evolution produces creatures like us; and we, being accidental offshoots of the universe, have no power over the whole and very little within it... (this view) allows us to see ourselves as trying to rise above unpromising origins, rather than having spoilt everything.. It is a dark view but not an ignoble one.

    --Janet Radcliffe Richards, Human Nature After Darwin: A Philosophical Introduction (2000)

    The God idea is not the reasoned allocation of chaos, cruelty, pain and death in some neat logical scheme. It is the passionate refusal of every atom in the human being to be terrified by these ogres.

    --Judaism as a Civilization, p. 330 "
    "A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by lord of the mark
      I think Catholicism and Main stream Protestantism, and even Judaism and Buddism and Islam have much to say in the American dialogue. The media likes to focus on the fundies. And the more we have left the public square naked of spirituality, the more the fundies have filled it.

      As for the Rabbi, I think he was clear enough. If he opposes social darwinism, and accepts the truth of Darwinism, how could he identify the two as the SAME (rather than historically linked)

      As it happens there is a discussion at the Society for the Advancement of Judaism in New York on a related topic. Here are some quotes they assembled as a prelude:

      "SHABBAT LUNCH: EVOLUTIONARY PSYCHOLOGY AND ETHICS
      What a book a Devil’s Chaplain might write on the clumsy, wasteful and blundering low and horribly cruel works of nature!

      --Charles Darwin (in an 1856 letter)

      Thus, from the war of nature, from famine and death, the most exalted object which we are capable of conceiving, namely, the production of the higher animals, directly follows. There is grandeur in this view of life...from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved.

      --Charles Darwin, The Origin of the Species (1859)

      The world is not characterless, it acts with a uniformity that gives meaning to its existence ... The salvation for which man strives is to live in rapport with that meaning.

      --JAC(Judaism as Civilization, Mordechai Kaplan), p. 461

      Just as the magnetic needle is the source of our knowledge of the earth’s magnetism, so is man’s salvational behavior the source of our knowledge about God...(this requires) no blind leap into the dark.

      --QJA(Questions Jews Ask, Mordechai Kaplan), pgs. 80,88

      Jewish religion maintains the eventual triumph of justice over brute force as the very essence of faith in God.

      --BVJR, p.43

      There is no reason to hope that eventually all manner of things will be well... The kind of order and complexity produced by evolution has nothing to do with the right or the good. Moral ideas can not be part of the scheme until evolution produces creatures like us; and we, being accidental offshoots of the universe, have no power over the whole and very little within it... (this view) allows us to see ourselves as trying to rise above unpromising origins, rather than having spoilt everything.. It is a dark view but not an ignoble one.

      --Janet Radcliffe Richards, Human Nature After Darwin: A Philosophical Introduction (2000)

      The God idea is not the reasoned allocation of chaos, cruelty, pain and death in some neat logical scheme. It is the passionate refusal of every atom in the human being to be terrified by these ogres.

      --Judaism as a Civilization, p. 330 "
      "A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by lord of the mark
        heres an orthodox Jewish thinker who is attempting to reconcile Orthodox Judaism with evolution. http://www.lookstein.org/articles/ju...and_darwin.htm
        That's a good article I think I prefer the Jewish approach to things, rather than the Fundy Christian approach.

        I found amusing the section 1 of CHALLENGES POSED BY DARWINISM, that being "The Place of Man". It strikes me that a sufficiently intelligent chimpanzee, perhaps a species of chimp bred specially for intelligence, could be advanced enough to understand monotheism, and therefore as much subject to God Law as any of God's "chosen species".
        Concrete, Abstract, or Squoingy?
        "I don't believe in giving scripting languages because the only additional power they give users is the power to create bugs." - Mike Breitkreutz, Firaxis

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Winston


          Not really, I'm just sick and tired of the PC crowd being so bent on criticizing and ridiculing Christians, while at the same time closing their eyes for the increasingly real threats to our way of life from Muslim fundamentalists.

          When someone places the Koran on a toilet seat, it's called abuse. And several people are killed just from the incident being rumoured. Yet nobody so far found it necessary to comment on.

          If they did it with a Bible, you'd all be up in roars about it.

          That's what I find sick.

          But the OP in itself, yes it was amusing. I already said so.
          Well, I don´t care about the Bible or the Koran. Same ****, different name if you ask me.
          I love being beaten by women - Lorizael

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Winston
            Not really, I'm just sick and tired of the PC crowd being so bent on criticizing and ridiculing Christians, while at the same time closing their eyes for the increasingly real threats to our way of life from Muslim fundamentalists.
            A lie. I'll point once more to Afghanistan, where for years leftist groups were jumping up and down about how horrible the fundie Taliban was and how somebody had to do something about it. The conservatives ignored it until the chickens came home to roost.

            Leftists abhor Islamic fundamentalism just as much as they do any kind of religious fanatacism. But in America, at least, the Christian fundies are the ones who are still the more pertinent threat. They have their talons sunk into the highest of our leaders and currently have the Republican leader of the Senate jumping through hoops in a desperate bid to appease them before his 2008 presidential run. It's Christian fundies who are making the push to put their beliefs in public schools for the purposes of early indoctrination. Islamists have no such weight here. When they are the folks pushing stupid things like the stickers on us, then maybe a thread like this will feature the Koran. Will that make you happy then?
            Tutto nel mondo è burla

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by chegitz guevara
              I think the Koran should be flushed down the toilet.
              Amen. Let's flush the other "Holy Books" while we're at it.
              Try http://wordforge.net/index.php for discussion and debate.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Boris Godunov


                A lie. I'll point once more to Afghanistan, where for years leftist groups were jumping up and down about how horrible the fundie Taliban was and how somebody had to do something about it. The conservatives ignored it until the chickens came home to roost.

                Leftists abhor Islamic fundamentalism just as much as they do any kind of religious fanatacism. But in America, at least, the Christian fundies are the ones who are still the more pertinent threat. They have their talons sunk into the highest of our leaders and currently have the Republican leader of the Senate jumping through hoops in a desperate bid to appease them before his 2008 presidential run. It's Christian fundies who are making the push to put their beliefs in public schools for the purposes of early indoctrination. Islamists have no such weight here. When they are the folks pushing stupid things like the stickers on us, then maybe a thread like this will feature the Koran. Will that make you happy then?

                excellent, well articulated post
                A lot of Republicans are not racist, but a lot of racists are Republican.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Well he certainly has a way of royally pissing me off with his snide personal accusations and derogatory style towards people with a different view from his own.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Boris Godunov


                    A lie. I'll point once more to Afghanistan, where for years leftist groups were jumping up and down about how horrible the fundie Taliban was and how somebody had to do something about it. The conservatives ignored it until the chickens came home to roost.

                    Leftists abhor Islamic fundamentalism just as much as they do any kind of religious fanatacism.
                    True, the anti-leftist propaganda is constantly trying to put leftists in the same corner as islamist fundies. When in reality most leftist groups are opposed to them. Not all though, there´s some wackos that support fundies (mainly stalinist and some of the more ****ed up trots). But others like the Worker Communist Parties of Iran and Iraq are so anti-islam that they´re impossible to work with...

                    But in America, at least, the Christian fundies are the ones who are still the more pertinent threat. They have their talons sunk into the highest of our leaders and currently have the Republican leader of the Senate jumping through hoops in a desperate bid to appease them before his 2008 presidential run. It's Christian fundies who are making the push to put their beliefs in public schools for the purposes of early indoctrination. Islamists have no such weight here. When they are the folks pushing stupid things like the stickers on us, then maybe a thread like this will feature the Koran. Will that make you happy then?
                    I love being beaten by women - Lorizael

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Winston
                      Well he certainly has a way of royally pissing me off with his snide personal accusations
                      Which ones were those? I don't recall any personal accusations.

                      and derogatory style towards people with a different view from his own.
                      So, making false accusations leftists of happily defending Islamic Fundamentalism while practicing unrivalled hatred towards Christianity isn't being derogatory towards a differing view? Your first post was dripping with derogatory sentiment, so this is a most amusing whine.
                      Tutto nel mondo è burla

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Boris Godunov


                        A lie. I'll point once more to Afghanistan, where for years leftist groups were jumping up and down about how horrible the fundie Taliban was and how somebody had to do something about it. The conservatives ignored it until the chickens came home to roost.
                        a few international human rights groups like Medecins San Frontieres (are they now to be considered "leftists"? - Im sure some loony righties think so) were - I cant recall anyone else of any prominence, left, right, or center, calling for action wrt to the Taliban. Other than the Northern Alliance types themselves.
                        "A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Go, Boris, Go!
                          Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Boris Godunov

                            Leftists abhor Islamic fundamentalism just as much as they do any kind of religious fanatacism. But in America, at least, the Christian fundies are the ones who are still the more pertinent threat. They have their talons sunk into the highest of our leaders and currently have the Republican leader of the Senate jumping through hoops in a desperate bid to appease them before his 2008 presidential run. It's Christian fundies who are making the push to put their beliefs in public schools for the purposes of early indoctrination. Islamists have no such weight here. When they are the folks pushing stupid things like the stickers on us, then maybe a thread like this will feature the Koran. Will that make you happy then?
                            Who really gives a damn about some idiot stickers? This isnt the scopes monkey trial. Theyre not going to ban teaching evolution. They'll put on some stickers saying "evolution is only a theory" POTM has already learned in school the difference between a theory and a hypothesis. If the fear is that some DONT understand that, and will be misled by "evolution is only a theory" than just put on stickers explaining what a theory is, and that its NOT a hypothesis.

                            I mean I dont see this going anywhere. POTM is learning genetic and evolutionary biology in school, and this if friggin Virginia, not exactly the most progressive state in the union.

                            If anything the REAL problem QOTM and I see with "conservatives" in education is the overemphasis on standardized testing, on homework, the retreat from progressive approaches to learning - not a battle about evolution. And the conservatives on those issues are as likely to be corporate conservatives, and broader social conservatives, as fundies.

                            The focus on the evolution battle is a matter of importance to NON-Parents - its not about education, its a symbolic kultur-kampf on both sides, that is distracting from real issues.

                            And ALL these issues are things we can argue about and decide democratically, in our political system. A far cry from taliban totalitarianism. (I'll admit to an exception for anti-abortion bomb throwers who use Anti-democratic means - if you want to call THEM taliban, go right ahead). Calling your political opponents, of right or left, Taliban or equivalent is just McCarthyism.

                            What I disliked about Frist's appearance was his not the substance of his views (so one political party wants to change traditional - but not constitutionally required - rules to help its guys get judgeships - sleazy, MAYBE, but not beyond the bounds. What bothered me was his implicit endorsement of the victim rhetoric of the religious right - but I see the victim rhetoric coming from the left as well, where minor things as taken as major, and where attempts to slow down progressive social changes are seen as equivalent to genocide. It seems to be the nature of kultur-kampfs to produce this paranoia on both sides.
                            "A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Winston


                              Not really, I'm just sick and tired of the PC crowd being so bent on criticizing and ridiculing Christians.

                              I'm not a member of the P.C. crowd (whatever that is, and how about that for stereotyping) but frankly fundamentalist Christians who selectively choose to ignore thousands of years of accumulated scientific data (whilst still having electrically operated homes, cars with combustion engines, digital watches) in favour of a literalist approach to a religious text written by various authors at various times and subject to revisions and interpretation deserve ridiculing- and as for literalist Muslims, or literalist Jews, if they carry on the same way, they deserve ridicule too.

                              Especially when they choose to apply literalist readings to enforce public obedience to rules of their own particular version of their religion.

                              I am not in favour of censorship or imprisonment or assassination though- methods that seem very popular with assorted Christians, Muslims and Jews (Hindus and Sikhs too, to be ecumenical).


                              One Muslim's view of lteralist Islam:

                              Vive la liberte. Noor Inayat Khan, Dachau.

                              ...patriotism is not enough. I must have no hatred or bitterness towards anyone. Edith Cavell, 1915

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by lord of the mark
                                Theyre not going to ban teaching evolution.
                                Not today, no. They're fighting an uphill battle just to get their religion taught in school. Once they've won, they get to go on towards banning evolution. The mistake moderates always make regarding fundies is they seem to think their aims are limited to their immediate struggles. Amongst themselves, they talk about establishing a fundimentalist theocracy. When we on the left attempt to point this out, we're accused of being alarmists and conspiracy theorists.
                                Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...

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