Osama bin Laden's view of the Crusades

[Ned]

Just a question from a "war" point of view. In Gladiator, Return of the King and this movie, large catapaults are effectively used against the enemy. The most effective against troops, IMHO, were the firebombs.

Did the ancients, etc., actual use such things?

[chequita guevara]

Yes and no. Some types of catapults used spears or small stones, which would be useless against a fortified structure. Using a trebuchet against troops, on the other hand, would be a waste, and the larger weapons were used only for bringing down structures.

I'm assuming you've heard of Greek Fire? It was a weapon invented by the Byzantines, kind of like ancient napalm. We don't know what it was or how it was delievered, but it was feared.

[BeBMan]

They used trebuchets in the middle ages. Probably not much in Western Europe during the dark ages, since (West)-Europe was rather backwards then, ancient knowledge was often "lost". Also large stone castles were not common at those times. Therefore you must see the development of those large siege engines related to the development of castles. The first crusaders weren't very familiar with sieging big castles or cities, so they got help from Byzantines (which had kept ancient knowledge) and from Italian trade cities which also provided often ships.

In 12th/13th century, when the movie plays, all sides used quite sophisticated siege techniques, and all sides were able to build excellent stone castles. Those big catapults were the best "artillery" before cannons appeared. Romans had catapults and other stuff before, as you see in Gladiator, but the movie depicts their effects IMO too "modern" (looks like if they fire napalm -edit. I mean the "explosions", no doubt they had burning stuff).

[CharlesBHoff]

Originally posted by Sandman
Oh, and lets not forget the Forth crusade and the sacking of Byzantium by the crusaders and their Venetian chums.

Than the Pope came close to Excommicate every Crusader who took part for all the murder and rape done in the city.

[CharlesBHoff]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove


Actually the Colonel Tarenton, upon who the British bad guy flunkie was obviously based did indeed murder colonial wounded and prisoners, though AFAIK he never herded colonial civilians into a church and burned it down. The British high command didn't like his methods and rebuked him. He was not killed by the Swamp Fox as depicted in the movie, but instead survived the war. He was present at Yorktown. After the surrender, Cornwallis threw the traditional post-battle feast for the officers of both sides. He made a point of not inviting Tarenton.

The Britich solider where basely hornable man. Plus the King also dinot want his past subject harm it possible it the Redcoat herb woman and childern into church and burn the Church down would have make it impossible to have the america public expect their rule it the Red Coat have won the war.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Yes and no. Some types of catapults used spears or small stones, which would be useless against a fortified structure. Using a trebuchet against troops, on the other hand, would be a waste, and the larger weapons were used only for bringing down structures.

I'm assuming you've heard of Greek Fire? It was a weapon invented by the Byzantines, kind of like ancient napalm. We don't know what it was or how it was delievered, but it was feared.

I don't think that any of these machines were generally used against troops, they were generally assembled on the site. Not even an idiot is going to post his troops in a field waiting nearly a month for the opposition to build their seige weapons. Even if a commander happened to have som already assembled, they're too slow to move, load and aim to use against troops in the open. The opposition would either charge and take the thing or move out of range. Arrow firing machines like ballistas or small stone throwing catapults could be used against troops inside a fort, since the troops inside of a fort couldn't just move out of range.

Greek fire was generally used at sea.

[CharlesBHoff]

Renaud was execute for his many crime like attacking religious cavan carry muslim to Mecca than treaty agree to by the King of Jerm and tact approval of the Pope. He launch than sea base attack in the Red Sea to take Mecca and burn it down, the King told him not to do it. The Pope was happy that loose cannon was execute also. It Renaud have burn down Mecca, the Muslim in North Africa would have burn down the city of Roma too. His fail attack on Mecca united the Muslim against the Christian. Saladin who have a hard time keeping his army together got money, supplies, free elite solider to fight for 1 year without paying then.

Renaud rape than Imperial Princess of the ERE and rape Saladin sister law who was on than religious cavan going to Mecca.

Hal Limsay than far right wing Christian of our time make Renaud out to be than good guy. When the Pope hear about
the Attack on Mecca they where close to declareing Renaud than unchristian.

[Heresson]

Perhaps the attitude of Renaud towards Muslims came out from his 15 years of imprisonment.

[chequita guevara]

He was a thug.

[Ned]

Charles, interesting. Was the rape of the ERE princess before or after the alliance between the ERE and Salah al-Din?

[Ned]

Dr. Strangelove, good post, although I thought the Romans did use some big weapons on conventional battles.

When the Mongols stormed in from the East shortly after the period of this movie, they were using rockets to fire into the opposing army. The point of these rockets was as obvious as firing napalm into the German ranks in Gladiator.

[CharlesBHoff]

Originally posted by Ned
Charles, interesting. Was the rape of the ERE princess before or after the alliance between the ERE and Salah al-Din?

Before the Alliance. Plus he attack ERE land on than regulate
base. The ERE complain to the King of Jerm who did nothing about him showing what a weak king he was. The Knight Templar hated his gut for cause touble in general. The Muslim and ERE where the only civilise people in the area.The ERE and the Kingdom of Jerm where allied and for the king to do nothing about Renaud was to show that they didnot want than to be allied. Look we are loseing Italy as than ally for murbering they agent in Iraq the way we did. with our tigger happy troop there. When we shot down than Iran cicli passerage liner over the Persian Gulf without handing over supid naval captrain to Iran to be execute for his hostile action against Islam.

[CharlesBHoff]

Originally posted by Ned
Dr. Strangelove, good post, although I thought the Romans did use some big weapons on conventional battles.

When the Mongols stormed in from the East shortly after the period of this movie, they were using rockets to fire into the opposing army. The point of these rockets was as obvious as firing napalm into the German ranks in Gladiator.

It depend on what type of battle they where fighting. It was than large scale battle in large formation of tighly pack man they use small engine to fire very small stones in a basket like grapeshots was once use, and to fire spear like arrows also at tight formation. It was a small battle or loose formation where use they didnot use then.

[CharlesBHoff]

The Knight Templar didnot like the ERE at all but they where intelligence enought to know they cannot fight both ERE and Saladin at the same time. The treatry allow safe passage to Christian and Muslim believe to travel safely to the Holy site was than very old one sign under the first king of Jerm with the muslim with tact approve of the Pope as it allow safe passage thought muslim land for Christian to visit the Holy land but if than Christian did than clear cut criminal act like rape he lost the protection of the pact.