60 year anniversary of V-E day.

[Lancer]

Question though Markos...wouldn't this be seen as a case of the US messing around in the sphere of the EU? Isn't this something Greece should make contigent on the Turks joining the EU?

Shouldn't Greece rely on the French and Germans for help on this one?

[molly bloom]

Given that parts of the Commonwealth and Belgium and France still celebrate Armistice Day and that New Zealand and Australia celebrate Anzac Day, I think the German Ambassador should not protest quite so much.


Next he'll be asking the country to rename Waterloo Station 'Blucherplatz'.

In any case, given that civilian participants and combatants in WWII are still alive, I fail to see why we shouldn't commemorate the sacrifices made and challenges met by an older generation- but also recognise that there's more to that than empty triumphalism, and that Germans died fighting Nazi tyranny too.


The City of Coventry and Coventry Cathedral showed the way, years ago:

http://www.coventry.gov.uk/redirect?oid=[com.arsdigita.cms.contenttypes.ESDService%3A{id%3D 126059}]


" The International Centre for Reconciliation (ICR) at Coventry Cathedral is one of the world’s oldest religious-based centres for reconciliation. It was established following the destruction of Coventry Cathedral in 1940, after which the provost made a commitment not to revenge, but to reconciliation with Britain’s enemies. Since then, ICR’s work for peace has expanded into some of the world’s worst areas of conflict. Much of the Centre’s early work was in the former Communist bloc, broadening to focus on conflicts involving the three major monotheistic faiths. Today, ICR is committed to reconciliation in various situations of violent conflict, some related to religious dispute and others fuelled by different factors. In addition to its short-term reconciliation work, ICR coordinates the Community of the Cross of Nails, an international network of over 150 organisations in 60 countries committed to reconciliation, which also provides ICR with a practical and spiritual support base. "

http://www.coventrycathedral.org.uk/bkground.html

[Winston]

One side of the anniversary that doesn't get mentioned so often is that it also provides an excellent opportunity for teaching lessons on what actually took place during those terrible years not so long ago.

To the young generations - and maybe also to some others, who apparently remain at constant risk of forgetting that the exact line of thinking, the end of which we're now commemorating, is still something to watch out for.

Nazi blunder casts shadow over German Open

BERLIN, May 7 (Reuters) - A photograph of Nazi Hermann Goering in the programme of the German Open tennis tournament and reference to the host club’s “golden times” after its Jewish members fled in the thirties has caused outrage.

The head of Berlin’s Jewish community Albert Meyer said on Saturday the passage was a disgrace. “This article is unthinkably tactless,” he told German newspaper Bild.

Berlin’s Rot Weiss tennis club has apologised for the slur and suspended director Lars Rehmann, who co-authored the text.

In a section of the programme on the club’s rich heritage, Luftwaffe (air force) chief Goering is pictured sitting on the club’s honorary tribune, with uniformed Nazi officers behind him.

The text describes how Jewish members of the club fled Hitler and continues: “With its membership reduced by half in this way, the club, previously known as a ‘Jewish club’, opened itself to new members.”

“In sporting terms this change brought no interruption for the club and top German tennis. On the contrary, golden times ensued.”

Unbelievable.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Riesstiu IV
I fought in Nam dammit! Where's my remembrance day?!

You lost.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Winston

Unbelievable.

Good lord!

[BeBMan]

Originally posted by molly bloom
In any case, given that civilian participants and combatants in WWII are still alive, I fail to see why we shouldn't commemorate the sacrifices made and challenges met by an older generation(...)

Well, of course you're right, but I don't think any reasonable person from Germany would seriously ask for that. That's certainly not an official position hold here.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by BeBro


Well, of course you're right, but I don't think any reasonable person from Germany would seriously ask for that. That's certainly not an official position hold here.

Don't mention the war.


For me it's a question of education, education, education- and I think West Germany pretty much had education about WWII covered, in the post war period, certainly in comparison to East Germany, which in reference to events such as the bombing of Dresden was happy to stigmatize the Allies as being 'as bad' as the Nazis, ironically by recycling Goebbels' own propaganda.


My own father and grandmother narrowly escaped death in the bombing of Coventry, and growing up there has made me passionate in making younger people understand what the war was about, not just from the point of view of the Allies, but also ordinary Germans, and those who actively opposed Hitler from the start. It's why I utterly reject the idea that all Germans had responsibility for the Holocaust, or that all Germans now are still in some way culpable, or should feel ashamed.

Given the language used in some of the political 'debates' in the British election just passed, it's clear that some pernicious ideas never die, they just get recycled and tricked out in codewords and phrases- like conflating asylum seekers and immigrants, for instance.

[asleepathewheel]

Germany:

Nazis and 99 luft balloons

[BeBMan]

Originally posted by molly bloom
My own father and grandmother narrowly escaped death in the bombing of Coventry, and growing up there has made me passionate in making younger people understand what the war was about, not just from the point of view of the Allies, but also ordinary Germans, and those who actively opposed Hitler from the start. It's why I utterly reject the idea that all Germans had responsibility for the Holocaust, or that all Germans now are still in some way culpable, or should feel ashamed.

Ironically, the only people who seem to think there's a "collective guilt" are our neonazis. They whine again and again how evil other countries (mainly those evil Allies) force poor modern day Germans to feel guilty all the time. Of course, it is pathetic nonsense to manipulate the public view on history. They do what the "real" nazis did in the 1920ies/1930ies: they distort the facts so much that - if you believe them - always others are responsible, for whatever.....However, they have learned somewhat, they aren't only primitive SA - types anymore, there's a certain part of the far-right/neo-nazi scene which provides intellectual ammunition for such "debates" which is only to refute if you have good knowledge of history. These I consider sometimes more dangerous than those street mob neo nazi types....

Fortunately most people are clever enough to see through their "fog". But people often here still feel ashamed when they are confronted with nazi crimes, even if they were not personally involved. It is a somehow natural reaction if you're not totally made of stone. There are also others, who think there's "enough" of the talk about nazi era and WWII, and we should "forget" - as if we could blank out the parts of the past we don't like. Such voices appear from time to time, but there's no way back to the "silent" times of the 50ies, when most people thought it was better not to talk about anything related to the nazi time.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by BeBro


Ironically, the only people who seem to think there's a "collective guilt" are our neonazis.

I seem to recall an American 'Poly poster who thought that all Germans were to blame, alas.

[BeBMan]

I don't believe him

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by BeBro
I don't believe him

Neither did I- and I put him right.

[Tattila the Hun]

Originally posted by Winston
The text describes how Jewish members of the club fled Hitler and continues: “With its membership reduced by half in this way, the club, previously known as a ‘Jewish club’, opened itself to new members.”

“In sporting terms this change brought no interruption for the club and top German tennis. On the contrary, golden times ensued.”

Would be interesting to know, if that was actually true. Ie, did the club fare better in tournaments and such, after the... undesired members fled?

If so, only the wording needs a bit tuning. If them doing better is historical truth, why write otherwise? Maybe not write anything about the thirties at all...

But that's not a very good solution, either. A big black space in history?

[Winston]

It's the callousness of the text vis-a-vis the brutal removal of an entire people from society that's disturbing. And to think in this time and age.

The issue of whether the club got better is entirely irrelevant when placed in the context of the massive persecution of Jewish citizens in the 1930's. I don't see what's not to find repulsive about the author's outlook.

If they started fertilizing their training courts with crematorium ashes during the war and got even better at playing tennis because of it, should that get a mention too?

[Agathon]

I find it interesting because usually the americans are criticised for acting like they beat the nazis single handedly. This ambassador is saying the British are acting like this. And they are beating up germans.

We did f-all in the grand scheme of things. Someone count the dead Russians and tell me that's not true.

What's the current Russian dead count 25 million? 30 Million?