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Russia to Bush: We never occupied the Baltics!

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  • Russia to Bush: We never occupied the Baltics!

    This is a really odd argument we're having with Russia. Apparently, there is a wave of soviet nostalgia going on in Russia, which nobody else wants a part of, least of all the Baltics.

    I would have thought that 65 years on, Russia would look upon the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact as a grave mistake and leave aside dickering about the legal definition of occupation (Bush may have used the wrong word on this, but not so far from the correct one).



    Russia Rebukes Bush on Remark

    By Peter Baker
    Washington Post Staff Writer
    Friday, May 6, 2005; Page A14

    Russia issued a testy rebuke of President Bush yesterday on the eve of his departure for Europe, denying that Moscow had forcibly occupied the Baltic states of Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia in 1940. This restatement of a Soviet view of history provoked a new round of controversy over modern Russia's intentions toward the now-independent states.

    The statement came in response to a letter that Bush sent to the leader of Latvia. In it, the president acknowledged that the upcoming 60th anniversary of the end of World War II marked a tragic moment for the three tiny nations because during the conflict they were "occupied" by Soviet troops and absorbed into the Soviet Union against their will.

    Bush leaves this morning for Riga, the Latvian capital, before heading to Moscow for the anniversary festivities.

    Sergei Yastrzhembsky, the Russian ambassador to the European Union, convened a news conference in Moscow to insist that Soviet forces were invited into the Baltic states by their governments, an assertion that was the official Soviet line for half a century.

    "One cannot use the term 'occupation' to describe those historical events," Yastrzhembsky said, according to news accounts. "At that time, the troop deployment took place on an agreed basis and with the clearly expressed agreement of the existing authorities in the Baltic republics."

    A statement on the Russian Foreign Ministry Web site elaborated on that view, contending that under international law there was no occupation "because there was no state of war between the USSR and the Baltic states and no military actions were being conducted and the troops were introduced on the basis of an agreement."

    In what was known as the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact, the Soviet dictator Joseph Stalin sealed a secret agreement with Adolf Hitler of Germany in 1939 to divide Poland and guarantee control over Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia. Soviet troops moved into the Baltic states the next year, on the pretense of responding to invitations. The states regained their independence in 1991.

    In protest of the long Soviet rule, the leaders of Lithuania and Estonia are boycotting the anniversary celebration in Moscow on Monday, while President Vaira Vike-Freiberga of Latvia agreed to go only following Bush's visit. U.S. officials have said that they privately tried to persuade Russian President Vladimir Putin to use the anniversary to renounce the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact but that he refused.

    Kaspars Ozolins, counselor at the Latvian Embassy in Washington, said he was not surprised that Russia would deny an occupation. "But what is surprising and regretful is they're using more of this aggressive, nationalistic rhetoric and they're moving away from what other democratic and free countries are thinking about the past," he said.

    In several interviews with Baltic journalists yesterday, Bush did not use the word "occupation," instead referring to "the form of government imposed upon Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia."

    But he said he discussed the matter with Putin during a February meeting in Slovakia and would repeat the message in Moscow on Sunday. "Yes, of course I'll remind him of that," Bush said. "I told him in Slovakia that I felt it was important for him to understand that my friends, the leaders of the Baltics, are upset; in other words, they don't view the end of World War II as a great moment of celebration. And there's a reason why."
    Last edited by DanS; May 6, 2005, 11:46.
    I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

  • #2
    I would have thought that 65 years on, Russia would look upon the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact as a grave mistake and leave aside dickering about the legal definition of occupation.


    That comment gives it away that you're an American . Russians have this imprialistic thinking that they haven't yet even started to overcome, so they can not admit the mistakes of their past. Maybe another 60 years later when two more generations have changed.
    Solver, WePlayCiv Co-Administrator
    Contact: solver-at-weplayciv-dot-com
    I can kill you whenever I please... but not today. - The Cigarette Smoking Man

    Comment


    • #3
      They never made any mistakes. That's just capitalist propaganda!
      Blah

      Comment


      • #4
        It's amazing to me that Bush can continue to make geopolitical hay for the US on a pact that was killed 60 years ago.
        I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by BeBro
          They never made any mistakes. That's just capitalist propaganda!
          Exactly.
          Attached Files

          Comment


          • #6
            It was just bad luck with the Soviet Union
            Blah

            Comment


            • #7
              DanS, yes, as you might have guessed, we have been following the recent steps closely and continue to do so. We have been blamed for things we never even did, backing up the old propaganda that has been proven false ages ago and admitted by both sides, and in one single second it was all taken back and let the old good times roll again.

              This, in itself, is not dangerous this statement, because baltic countries won't retaliate, but this is a dangerous indicator how current leadership sees the situation, this reveals the direction they are going into, and make no mistake, this is not your friend. It's the same old ****, but in a nicer package than before.

              What Solver says is correct. It's imperialistic thinking where others are pawns that can be used. Their politics doesn't even consider us small negihbours humans. The only play I'm interested in is how the folks in russia take these comments. Are they like some of the believers we have on the internet 'I KNEW IT! I KNEW IT waS ONLY WESTERN PROPAGANDA ALL THIS TIME!'. You just need to feed one thing and they're back to the old thinking patterns. But in all honesty, I don't think they really care about what leadership says or what the relations to other countries are, they would be more interested in how things in their own country are going, how they can improve standards of living and all that kind of stuff so I don't think the majority is even that interested or taking notes or listening.
              In da butt.
              "Do not worry if others do not understand you. Instead worry if you do not understand others." - Confucius
              THE UNDEFEATED SUPERCITIZEN w:4 t:2 l:1 (DON'T ASK!)
              "God is dead" - Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" - God.

              Comment


              • #8
                One more thing,
                current regimes of Baltic States are Nazi regimes.

                Have a nice night.

                Comment


                • #9


                  Well come fight us then, *****.
                  In da butt.
                  "Do not worry if others do not understand you. Instead worry if you do not understand others." - Confucius
                  THE UNDEFEATED SUPERCITIZEN w:4 t:2 l:1 (DON'T ASK!)
                  "God is dead" - Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" - God.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    OMG!!! Teh NAZIS!
                    Blah

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Teh Godwin!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Oh and by the way my last comment should be clarified. It wasn't an invitation to start flamewars... it was a comment that is as good as the comment above it, meaning it makes no sense and only ***** make them.

                        Though I was only playing one.

                        In da butt.
                        "Do not worry if others do not understand you. Instead worry if you do not understand others." - Confucius
                        THE UNDEFEATED SUPERCITIZEN w:4 t:2 l:1 (DON'T ASK!)
                        "God is dead" - Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" - God.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          This is a really interesting interplay. Most of the nations of the EU are, as the FT describes, "aloof" on this issue of democracy in Central and Eastern Europe. I don't know why. You would think they would want to send good vibes to new members of the EU. Bush looks at this void and is helping himself to all the glory. He's on the side of angels.
                          I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Pekka
                            Their politics doesn't even consider us small negihbours humans.
                            Funny thing, you whose country fought side by side with Hitler and folks from Baltic States whose countries did the same, whose SS legions slaughtered hundreds of thousands of civilians only because there were "second grade humans", now saying that Russians don't treat some kind of people as humans.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              ps. at least nazis admitted they were wrong. To say SU never occupied baltics is like saying holocaust never happened. YOu can find an article to support your views, but get a clue.

                              And no I'm not comparing nazis and commies. Stalin killed more.

                              In da butt.
                              "Do not worry if others do not understand you. Instead worry if you do not understand others." - Confucius
                              THE UNDEFEATED SUPERCITIZEN w:4 t:2 l:1 (DON'T ASK!)
                              "God is dead" - Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" - God.

                              Comment

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