Should United Workers Strike the Company Out of Existence?

[Dinner]

If it stays in the ****ter yes but if the stock eventually goes up then no as the man was still given an asset which turned into money for him. That didn't happen for the workers so it isn't exactly equal. Is it?

BTW you know this will happen, everyone reading knows it will happen, and I know it will happen. Let's not pretend that what the bankruptcy court says is the end of the payola story for those guys. There is always some sort of additional bonus or payout for management after the bankruptcy court finishes with the company.

[Imran Siddiqui]

And I'm asking for proof rathe than "everyone knows it will happen".

JohnT already destroyed your 'bet' that the company is bloated with management, so I'm sorry if I demand more proof than another non-supported statement from you.

[Sikander]

Firstly, we need to take pensions out of the hands of companies and turn them over to a third party. Companies would make payments toward their pension obligations (or not), but they would not be able to pretend that they were living up to their labor agreements when they were in fact selling their people down the river.

Secondly, we need some airlines to go out of business in order to save some others. Most of our airlines have so much debt that it is doubtful many will be able to survive in the long term. It's better that a few fail now so that the marginal companies have a chance to survive without racing to the bottom in terms of compensation.

[Patroklos]

That didn't happen for the workers so it isn't exactly equal. Is it?

Its not supposed to be.

Firstly, we need to take pensions out of the hands of companies and turn them over to a third party.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

There needs to be some sort of regulation tieing the hands of management (both of companies and of municipalities) prevent "balloon payments" and other methods used to put off & put off the funding of pensions for retirees. Yes, this will be another burden on already burdened companies but if the pension debt is going to push a compnay over the edge then at least if it happens in one year instead of 5-10 years then the costs to the tax payer are lower.

The only problem with this is that companies will put out of the pension business altogether. That's the very careful line that was struck with ERISA. If you put too much regulations on them, they'll just say screw having the pension... we'll just get fully funded now and pay everyone out. ESPECIALLY if you say you can't underfund... that means if the stock market goes down, you've violated federal law... that's just silly.

After all, no one is required to keep a pension plan for its employees and a lot of small businesses don't have one.

Of course changing the funding rules overnight could utterly destroy the US economy as just about every plan is probably underfunded, due to the underperforming stock market of the early 00's.

My dad talks about this - how, if he were entering the workforce now, he wouldn't become a pension actuary (like he did about thirty years ago) because more and more companies are just not using pension plans.

[JohnT]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by Oerdin
[QUOTE] Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

The CEO barely cleared $1.1 million, and for a position that I guarantee you is just ****in' brutal, far more brutal on the spirit and soul than being a mere football player.

You're going to have problems convincing the lefties on this site of this truth, John .

Please correct me if I'm wrong but I'm guessing that many of these "bankruptcy specialist CEOs" know the system and know they're going to have salary reductions by the court and therefor demand some what more upfront to compensate(1). In any event he knew exactly what he was getting into when he signed up (bankruptcy experience was the reason hee was hired) so I don't feel sorry for him(2). Also your figures in the salry reduction pointedly didn't look at the $3 million dollar bonus he recieved(3). He already got his money and once the company clears bankruptcy court he will likely recieve new stock options so I'm not going to cry over the lose of his old stock options.(4)

1. The way to see if this assertion is correct is to compare his salary to others in like positions. Delta's CEO made $3.7 million in 2004, SW Airlines CEO James F. Parker took in $694,000 in salary and $214,000 in stock options, JetBlue's CEO took in $335,000 in total compensation, and the CEO of MesaAir made over $4,000,000 in pay and bonuses. (Source: AFL-CIO.) So it looks as if Mr. Tillman took a very middle-of-the-road package, as opposed to your assertion that he is "milking the system."

2. Nor should you. Nor should you feel sorry for a football player who gets injured or a soldier who gets shot - they knew what they were getting into when they signed up.

3. A complete and total lie. Did you not even read the sentence

He agreed to a salary of $950,000 and a bonus of $3,000,000

4. Then why cry over the loss of the pensions? Mr. Tillman, believe it or not, is a "worker" too - why is he not deserving of the same faux courtesy and respect that you pay lip-service to when it comes to the line workers? He gave up a very lucrative career at Texaco, with a potential FV exceeding $100 million, to try to lead UAL through this difficult period. He has taken the very same hits he is asking his employees to take (rather than lining his pockets, which you are just so wanting to will into reality). He has no pension. His salary has been cut by 1/3, his 401(k) is worthless, and like all the other employees, he's left with just the hope that there's something to salvage on the other side.

I don't feel sorry for him either - he's a grown man, he knows what could happen. However, the accusations and insinuations that you are constantly making are not supported by the facts, which, btw, are freely available for the looking.

Companies need to stop dumping their pension debts upon the government and they need to stop underfunding their pension systems just so that when something like this happens the public doesn't get ripped off.

In the Social Security threads, you argue against the government dumping its "pension" responsibilities on the market - here, you are arguing that pensions need to stay private and not be brought under the government aegis. Which is it???

There needs to be some sort of regulation tieing the hands of management (both of companies and of municipalities) prevent "balloon payments" and other methods used to put off & put off the funding of pensions for retirees. Yes, this will be another burden on already burdened companies but if the pension debt is going to push a compnay over the edge then at least if it happens in one year instead of 5-10 years then the costs to the tax payer are lower.

I could go for that, with revisions. You do realize that you're asking for hundreds of thousands, millions of job cuts as companies scramble to fund their pensions, don't you?

[JohnT]

They'll be given a gift of stock instead of options if the numbers don't add up but they will get something at the end of the day. They always do.

So? Did you even look at the 10k?

Oerdin, it is a brutally difficult job to guide a company though bankruptcy - you are WAY underestimating the amount of time, energy, knowledge, and preparation it takes to even have a chance of winding an organization the size of UAL through America's arcane bankruptcy laws. It's not a job that can be done by just anyone, and there is a reason why people who can do it (like Lee Iacoccoa) are richly rewarded for their efforts.

Good god, this man is trying to save the livelihoods of 61,000 families, while balancing a legal and financial morass of obligations, commitments, and regulations, and you want to say "**** off" when he successfully does the job!

Tell ya what. We'll put a random flight attendent in charge of UAL, give him/her the same compensation package that Tillman gets, and we'll see how long the airline lasts. Better yet, we'll swap the entire executive suite (all 5 of them, those bloated bastards) with random line workers and see what happens.

[JohnT]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
And I'm asking for proof rathe than "everyone knows it will happen".

I have no doubt that it will happen, Imran, the point is whether or not somebody who saves 100,000-200,000 jobs is worth a few million after a job well done. Chrysler actually ran out of cash 3 times in 1979-1980, but Iacoccoa and his team from Ford saved the company through a combination of lobbying, cost-cutting, and new car development (many people don't remember, but the K-car was the first American plate to have front-wheel drive as standard). By 1984, Chrysler was swimming in cash, paying the line workers 4 and 5 figure bonuses, and Lee Iaccocoa began a two-year reign as America's highest paid CEO with appx. $35 million in options and salary.

However, he saved the (then) 7th largest industrial agglomeration on the planet, a company that paid out over $2 billion in salaries in 1985. Is that worth $35 million?

I think so. Oerdin thinks not, that it'd be better to lose the $2 billion in salaries as to avoid paying one person $35 million for saving those jobs.

Imagine a system of bigotry and discrimination based upon what job one happens to have!

[Imran Siddiqui]

Oerdin, it is a brutally difficult job to guide a company though bankruptcy

Like I said before, you'll never get the loons on the left to actually believe this, no matter how true it is.

[JohnT]

I'm gonna assume the lack of response means that Oerdin concedes all my points.

[JohnT]

dp