China, Iran, Vietnam totally pwn the US

[Alexander's Horse]

Originally posted by Proteus_MST


You mean, everything we hear from the US and every poster claiming he is from US of A is a fake,
because the whole population of the United states was already executed?

I seem to recall that germany used to do a nice line executions too.......

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse


I seem to recall that germany used to do a nice line executions too.......

Oh, most European countries did. Breaking on the wheel (limbs and bones pulverized and broken with an iron bar) hanging, drawing and quartering, burning at the stake, boiling in lead and oil, noyades (mass drownings)...

...makes lynchings almost tame in comparison.


As early as the 17th and 18th Century, Europeans were noting the non-deterrent qualities of the death sentence- and the way that public executions encouraged crime (Charles Dickens notably mentioned this).


On Italy's unification the death sentence was abolished, but then reinstituted by the Fascists. What a shocker.

[DeathByTheSword]

Originally posted by Oerdin
everyone else still understands the deterence value of capital punishment

this i always find funny to hear from pro death penalty people from the US...there is no sienctify bases for that argument rather the opposite

as for the other bases:

religous: dont go there because i will debate the **** out of you

revenge: indicates personell gratifaction and therefore has no communal base so should not be done by a government...

i cant think of any other reason so please ALL the PRO-death penalty people on poly help me out...

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by DeathByTheSword


this i always find funny to hear from pro death penalty people from the US...there is no sienctify bases for that argument rather the opposite

Cesare Beccaria:

" Is it not absurd that the laws which detest and punish homicide, in order to prevent murder, publicly commit murder themselves ?'

'Dei delitti e delle pene', publ. 1764 .

The government of the Netherlands told a Royal Commission that :

" It is definitely established that the abolition of the death penalty in the ordinary penal code has not resulted in an increase or worsening of crime,"

in Joyce's 'The Death Penalty in European Countries' .

[MikeH]

I'm writing to my MP to insist we bring back hanging so we can play in this league. I reckon we can catch up with the Saudis in a few years.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by MikeH
I'm writing to my MP to insist we bring back hanging so we can play in this league. I reckon we can catch up with the Saudis in a few years.

As I recall Great Britain had an absurd number of crimes for which the penalty was death, in the 18th Century.

One hundred and sixty separate offences by 1776- lucky for those American rebels that they won.

[MikeH]

We did, you could be hanged for stealing some bread. If you could get someone influential to vouch for you you could get your sentence commuted to transportation to Australia though.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
The US has such untapped potential for greatness. 59 means that only 1 in 300 murderers is executed.

That's pure laziness.

We should get some Canadians to club them all

[Wycoff]

Originally posted by DeathByTheSword
i cant think of any other reason so please ALL the PRO-death penalty people on poly help me out...

Here are two posts I wrote on a previous DP thread:

Post 1:

We live in a society that is a construct of laws, rules, and morals. In a Republic, that construct is basically a product of the combined will of the people (at least that's how Liberal theory goes). People are (or at least should be) free to live in any way they choose, so long as their actions fit within the constraints of those laws, rules, and morals. The basic, unspoken agreement to live within those boundaries is the basis of the social contract. The majority finds these boundaries to be the boundaries of proper society, and those who live within those boundaries are, by definition, living in that society in an acceptable fashion. The boundaries, though rigid, aren't set in stone, and can be changed through acts of legislature, through the courts, through constitutional amendment, or simply through a gradual change in what the populace feels is acceptable behavior.

The importance of this construct is that, in a sense, it actually is society. It's the set of ground rules that everyone must accept if the society is to continue. In such a society, a "wrong" occurs when someone crosses outside of the legal boundaries. The more severe the wrong, the farther outside of society that person has stepped.

The society as a whole has an interest in punishing those who transgress the boundaries. If they don't punish them, then more and more people will eventually see the boundaries as worthless. If enough people are convinced that they don't have to play by the rules, then the basic structure of society will be so weakened that it can no longer support the society, causing the society to eventually collapse. Therefore, society has a self-interest in punishing those who cross outside of society's boundaries.

In my view, the punishment for crossing society's boundaries has two aspects: can they be rehabilitated and should they ever be allowed to return to society (the punishment/revenge aspect).

First of all, does the magnitude of the crime indicate a level of anti-social behavior that would prevent the criminal from ever again becoming a productive person within society? To me, this is a measurement of how far outside society's boundaries the criminal has stepped. A minor crime is slightly outside societal boundaries. This indicates a mild anti-social personality, but also that the person is close enough to societies boundaries that, through rehabilitation, he could once again operate productively within those boundaries. A terrible crime means that someone has far surpassed society's boundaries. This indicates a strong anti-social personality. A person willing to travel so far out of society would be hard to effectively rehabilitate. The worst criminals have, through their actions, stepped so far outside of the boundaries of society that they can never be returned. They have permanently revoked their right to be part of that society. They can't be rehabilitated.

Secondly, given the nature of his crime, should the person have a chance to attempt to become a productive member of society? Does the person deserve the opportunity to be rehabilitated? I'd argue that this should be measured in how the crime affects the ability other members of society to function. If you commit a crime that prevents another person from ever again being able to properly function, then you lose your right to function in that society. It's the punishment for stepping so far out of society's boundaries, as you have indicated that you are so anti-social that you don't deserve to be in that society.

A small transgression (like petty theft) represents a small step outside of the bounds of society. The crime wasn't that severe. Chances are that the victim won't be scarred for life, and that she'll be able to function as well as before within a reasonably short amount of time. The mild nature of the crime means that the person hasn't stepped that far outside of society's boundaries, and thus that it would be possible to bring them back within society without much effort. Therefore, their crime should merit a small punishment (to show that what they did is intolerable), but should also receive significant opportunities for rehabilitation.

A much more serious crime, like sexual assault, should merit a much more severe punishment. First of all, a person who commits a sexual assault has stepped far beyond the boundaries of what is socially acceptable. There is no way to rationalize their actions to fit within a model for proper behavior. It would take a long time to effectively rehabilitate capable of such anti-social behavior. Furthermore, their assault may have severely impaired the ability of their victim to function. She may very well suffer mental and emotional problems for the rest of her life. The criminal should therefore be punished to an extent that reflects the impairment of the victim. A rapist should get a long jail sentence, one that both would help try to rehabilitate while still punishing him for his grievous social offense.

The final category would be the capital crimes. Some crimes are so far outside of society's boundaries that that person cannot be returned as a functioning person within that society. They indicate a level of anti-social personality that can never be rehabilitated to a point in which they could fit within normal society. Not only that, but their crimes were so heinous that they don't deserve the opportunity to return; they're actions show that they utterly reject the society and its rules. They've killed people. This means that they've not only removed their victims from the society, but, through killing their loved ones, have also permanently impaired the ability of their families to completely return to normal. The criminal, through their combination of severe anti-social personality and with the severe social disturbance caused through their actions, has forfeited their right to ever live in the society again.

Why isn't life in prison a sufficient forfeiture? Because prison is still part of society. Prison is funded by society, staffed by law-abiding (hopefully) members of society, holds criminals that eat food produced in the outside society, etc. Admittedly, prison has a strange position. Though it is still inside of society, it is isolated enough to be considered outside of society in some circumstances; it's atmosphere certainly reinforces that isolation. This isolation from the freedom of outside society, though not actually removing people from that society, serves as an artificial removal.

The more minor the crime, the more proportionally isolated prison is, thus making it a better substitute for actually leaving society. This plays into the idea that committing a crime is stepping out of society. The degree of artificial isolation that a minimum-security prison presents is severe enough removal to punish a minor crime. A major crime, like a vicious sexual assault, is a large step outside of the boundaries, and requires a much higher degree of isolation to effectively punish them for their crimes. That's why vicious rapists need to get decades in a maximum-security prison.

Some crimes represent a step so far outside of society that the artificial removal of a maximum-security prison isn't an adequate enough level of removal from society. These terrible criminals have, by their own actions, permanently removed their right from being part of society. However, being in prison, no matter how vicious the prison, is still society. They're not living in a vacuum. They're still eating food that other people could be eating. They still have the hope that they could escape from prison. They still can interact with other people in the society, both other prisoners and guards. They can read books produced by the society, read news reports of events happening outside of that society. They can still get letters from their families. They still benefit from government funding and shelter. True, their freedoms are extremely curtailed. That curtailment is sufficient enough to substitute for societal removal for lesser criminals. However, it isn't enough for these offenders. The fact that they are still doing the activities described above shows that they are still connected with the society to a degree that isn't sufficient to reflect the way that they, by their own actions, removed themselves from society. The only way that they can be sufficiently removed is through state execution.

These aren't small crimes that I'm describing. Some 1st degree murders wouldn't even fit in this category. I'm describing heinous crimes, crimes with ample proof that the criminal committed the crimes. I'm talking about John Wayne Gacy raping and murdering dozens of teenagers and burying them under his house. I'm describing Ted Bundy, Jeffery Dahmer, Ed Gein. These people do not deserve to eat while there is anyone within society that is starving. By their own actions they have removed themselves from society, why should they reap societal benefits while other people still in society do not? To me, the death penalty is the only satisfactory solution. It's the only way to permanently remove them from the society. They don't deserve any societal resources, resources that could be used on others who haven't removed themselves that far outside of society. Their removal was by their own choice, so they must be removed by the only effective means. I think it's immoral to keep expending resources on them that could go to others.

You can say that a state performing executions cause the state to lose its moral advantage; execution puts the state on the level of the killer. I disagree. The morality of the state is different from the morality of a single person. Society gives the state its power to punish people who leave society's boundaries. If the state catches a thief, it has the unquestioned authority to imprison him. If I catch a thief, I do not have that same ability. I'm not invested with that power. Society can give the state the moral authority to permanently remove heinous criminals from society in a way that reflects the criminal's self-removal. I can't execute John Wayne Gacy; I'm not invested with the authority to do so. The fact that society invests the state with the power to punish means that when it properly carries out the punishments demanded by society, its actions are moral. The state isn't killing a killer, it's executing a murderer, and society has the right to give the state the moral authority to do so.

You say that execution is revenge. In a way it is, but all punishment has an aspect of revenge. Putting a rapist is jail is also revenge for what he has done; after all, him being jail will not reverse time and make up for the rape. If there were no revenge element, all that would happen to a criminal is that he would have been told that he had done wrong and that he would be monitored to ensure that he didn't do further wrong, but his actions were water under the bridge and can't be changed by punishing him. In a way, "revenge" plays a role in making people pay for something that can't actually be replaced. The rapist can never unrape his victim, the murderer can never revive his victim. Jailing them doesn't change anything, it's just making them pay for the crime in the only way that we think can be effective; removing their freedom. To me, execution is the only fitting response to some cases where even restriction of freedom isn't a sufficient enough punishment. There is some revenge to this, but it's also the society protecting itself from those who can never again fit within its confines. Its also justice, ensuring that resources don't go to those that absolutely don't deserve them. Innocent people shouldn't starve or go homeless while mass murders are given state food and shelter.

Granted, the death penalty has some terrible possible downsides. Executed people cannot later be exonerated if innocent. That's why I'd reserve it for only the most heinous and obvious cases. However, I don't think that it should be removed as an option for dealing with the Gacys and Bundys of the world. I think that it's immoral for society to keep people like that alive.

[Wycoff]

Post 2:

I'm not concerned with the deterrent value of capital punishment. To me, it's irrelevant whether or not having capital punishment as an option deters crime.

My view is more of a "societal-custodial" view (for lack of a better term). Society is cleansing itself of people that have acted in ways that are so abhorrent and contrary to the laws and morality of society that they have, in effect, revoked their right to live in that society. It's not right that they absorb resources that people who are still part of that society could be using, nor is it right that they still benefit from connections with that society, however tenuous. I think that it's acceptable for a society to choose to execute those people if it so wishes. There are a variety of reasons: permanently removing a murderous, anti-social threat from society, permanently freeing up resources that that person would otherwise absorb and reallocating them to others more deserving, and yes, forcing that person to pay the ultimate price for his heinous acts, a price that cannot truly be paid by a lifetime behind bars.

Deterrence of crime really isn't a factor. People willing to commit crimes of the magnitude I'm describing know that what they are doing will merit serious punishment, yet they do it anyway. IMO, deterrence is only an issue when people are "on the fence" about committing a crime, and then it's only of crimes of lesser magnitude; if someone is perfectly willing otherwise to commit a capital crime, they're already so anti-social (and "messed up in the head") that fear of punishment is not going to stop them. These people are outside of society, and thus society has nothing to gain from keeping them alive. Nothing would have deterred them, thus the fact that they weren't deterred by a possible capital punishment sentence is irrelevant.

The resource issue is another matter. To me this is the result of keeping potential capital liability too broad. I would never issue a death warrant on a case solely decided by circumstantial evidence, as the potential for error is too great. The system recognizes this, and, even though the jury supposedly found the suspect guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt, it's implied that the system doesn't fully trust their judgment in matter of life or death. That's why so many appeals are allowed.

I would limit the scope of capital punishment so it only included the most flagrant 1st degree murder cases. This would be a purely legal question, answered by a panel of judges. It would be reserved for cases like a John Wayne Gacy, where the murderer had the bodies of his victims under his house or otherwise knew where they were located, had clearly tortured, raped, or otherwise mutilated them, etc. The case against a criminal such as this isn't based on circumstantial evidence. After the Gacy-like criminal had his trial, if found guilty, I would allow him two weeks. If there were no new angle for his defense, no legal reason to stay the execution, then he would be executed.

The high cost of DP cases results from the numerous appeals. Remove all but those with the clearest evidentiary standards (as decided by a panel of judges) and the cost of a DP situation would fall significantly below that of keeping these worthless people in prison for the duration of their lives.

[MikeH]

This is not a "is the Death Penalty good or bad" thread, it's about getting higher up the league table.

[Sava]

death penalty

[Wycoff]

Originally posted by MikeH
This is not a "is the Death Penalty good or bad" thread, it's about getting higher up the league table.

DBTS wanted to turn this into a "justify the DP" thread.

[MikeH]

See Wycoff, I totally read all of Sava's post and understood his point. Take heed.

[Wycoff]

Originally posted by MikeH
See Wycoff, I totally read all of Sava's post and understood his point. Take heed.

I never really expected anyone to completely read what I wrote... it was more of a personal exercise. However, DBTS asked for it, so I gave it to him.