How corrupt is Finland?

[Pekka]

VetLegion, and no we coiuldn't get make corrupt behaviour go away in other places. T hat's why business students etc learn how to operate in other environments . Basically, it means that you are supposed to adapt where you go, so if bribes is the way to go, we would consider it just doing it the local way and somehow still being clean, because that's what you're supposed to do. In here you're not supposed to do it so you don't usually even try.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by VetLegion
[Lack of corruption] rests on trust.

Yup, as well as other factors. And this kinf of trust exists in part because of the lack of corruption. It's a typical benign circle.

What if one day, ONE Finn tries to bribe a cop. And he accepts.

In a country of 5 million, that has been independent for decades, I bet it has happened. And more than once. And recently. However, occasional corruption (that exists even in Finland) does not have the following consequence: "This spreads around in a chain reaction and sooner than you know it, your company is paying a percentage to get the contract and you can't do squat without pulling strings".
I'd think many Finns (especially those who are in positions that are interesting to bribe) find the very notion as morally abhorrent. Even in France, which is certainly not a model, many civil servants (teachers, policemen) feel insulted when you mention bribing them: that's because equality is one of the core values of the Republic they serve (I mean, it's often re-affirmed as a core value. Any bribed teacher or policeman goes completely against the principles they're fed with).

One of the main differences between societies of generalized corruption (think Africa) and societies of slighter corruption, is the acceptance of the different forms of corruption. In France, most people readily accept the fact that if you have good connexions (not necessarily money), you can cancel a fine, get public housing faster, or get jobs*. However, the idea of buying a driver's licence is abhorrent, whereas it is an accepted norm in plenty of more corrupt countries.

In Subsaharian Africa, corruption is an essential form of wealth transfer. A very large chunk of the population gets to have some public money in form of corruption/clientelism, rather than in the form of services. Of course, the top politicians are those who benefit the most, but political corruption digs deeply in the general population. These are countries where you can do nothing without permanently "greasing the gears".

In Asia (can't say for Singapore, but it's definitely the case in Malaysia), you have to bribe business partners and public services to get anything. It's very different than in most business-worlds of the West. In Kuala Lumpur, there are any middlemen who flourish as they offer their local expertise to foreign investors who are clueless about it. In the West, if you're looking for a provider for your business, you'll look for who offers the best quality and price. In Malaysia, you'll prefer the "second best" (still an acceptable choice) if the best is too haughty and refuses to give you -the exec- some nice gifts that'll help the decision.


*I am under the impression that it is changing, at least for the expectations toward the public sector

What is weird about Finland is that it is relatively small at about 5 million people, yes it is not really a everyone-knows-everyone situation, but refusing to do favors to people and cooperate would come back to you pretty fast and hit you in the head.

Nope. This kind of trust is called "generalized trust". It takes much time for a society to build it, but it's also not easy to undo it. This is a kind of trust where you generally expect others to do things the right way, and your lifelong experience confirms it. It has been proven that a strongly equalitarian society is very helpful in creating such trust, as people generally won't be "suckers" in such a society.

This kind of trust is difficult to achieve, but once it's there, pretty much everybody enjoys the benefits except the antisocial psychotics.

I have noticed the creation of a "general trust" in France on a very simple matter: in the subway station, we wait first for the descending passengers to exit, before entering. A few years ago, it was not the case: people rushed in the train before anybody exited, so that they could have their seats first (if you waited, you were basically the "sucker"). Yet, rushing in the train would be the "natural" behaviour: a friend of mine was baffled by the extent of that behaviour in Greek buses, where people actually fought to enter the bus. In today's Paris, however, you won't see it. It sure took time to have people act this way, but everybody benefits from the extra comfort provided by waiting (I mean, the train is much less empty after the descending passengers exited than before ) And even if sometimes the occasional ******* will try to climb too soon, it won't shake the bulk of people who generally enjoy the extra comfort.

[VetLegion]

It's just plain annoying that it works for you up there, and doesn't work here. I hope Russia invades eventually and normalizes things a little

[Pekka]

This is actually a little bit deeper and difficult to explain why it is like it is. You would have to know the people and their general nature etc to understand it better.

Basically, the one who cheats and gets rich is considered the ultimate criminal. Because it's impossible to get rich by working hard in normal jobs. It just won't happen. You have to own your business and make a killing, or you have to be a criminal or born rich. And even criminals are nto rich in here except maybe few are.

We have a popular saying that goes 'who is happy should hide it'. People get very jealous in here, fast. If you get a new car, some people think 'hey cool car' and most people will also think 'what crime did he pull off to get that'. Because, normal person should not have a nice car. How can he afford it? And if it's criminal, it's away from everyone else, high taxes you see.

If you are rich, even legally, then you are still most likely not well liked. If you were always poor and win the lottery, I'm not joking when I say, the fewer that know, the better. People get jealous. People who get a break, are not well liked. People are jealous. BEcause most of the people have worked very hard all their lives, and what do they have to show for it? We see television, all these nice things, movies, the apprentice, everything, and we think that since you work hard, you are supposed to get compensated, instead the gov sucks it all up in taxes that goes to some other people who are too lazy to work. THat's what most think. So, if you get money somewhere, hide it. Go somewhere else to party. That way you still have friends AND the money.

So it's also very difficult to get rich by anything else than legal work, because no one will like you and people will think you stole it anyway. Would someone tip off someone else, if they knew it was tax evation or something else, but they didn't know that person personally? Likely yes, if they are jealous enough, and people get jealous in here when it comes to money.

In here, it is impossible to get rich, and yet if you do, you are not supposed to, so you are not going to be popular. Everything bad that happens to you, you deserve it, because you can afford it. But we all know you didn't work hard for it, you got lucky, so you still don't deserve it.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by VetLegion
Say, you work for the government, your colleague at work takes bribes, would you turn him in? Of course not.

If I worked for the government, I would. My personal ethos leads me to tolerate favours and corrupt behaviour between private actors. However, the State must deal with each citizen equally. Any colleague working for the government who would favour others, especially for money, is a disgrace to the whole profession. He has nothing to do there.

Of course, I would only rat out for behaviours that are generally considered as "bad", and that are rare. If I was a cop, I wouldn't rat out someone who cancelled the ticket of his stepbrother's cousin or something, because its very common (we're finally taking steps against it ). If someone thwarted an investigation against a suspect for money, I would rat him out in a heartbeat.

[VetLegion]

Spiffor that's interesting and I'll take your word for it as you are political professional even if you are a commie and have it all backwards wrt economics

In Croatia everyone would rush to the seats too. There are a million "sucker" situations here, I see them every day. And I do my best not to be the sucker.

[VetLegion]

Spiffor, you woudn't last long. In France or anywhere. Shunned by colleagues, youd lose the job and never find another again. Dying homeless, at the age of 35 -- they'd point to you as the "guy who couldn't keep his mouth shut". Your genes would die with you, since nobody would be silly enough to reproduce with a traitor

[Pekka]

Also the lack of true bribes etc.. you have to understand, that we are very poor in small talk. I do mean it. It is difficult for us to talk to other people we don't know. That's also why, if you are in here, it's very find to make friends with anyone, because no one will just chat you up. NO ONE. If you strike a little conversation, you will get 'yes' or 'no', adn that's it.

SO, even in business dealings, it's all about not screwing up. don't say anything stupid. Offering bribes, even subtly, is a huge risk, must likely a major **** up. People are not suave. They don't have that talent to be smooth bribers. It's like nerd picking up a supermodel. VERY uncomfortable. So even if they wanted to, it's difficult. That's also why it's difficult for our knuckleheads to succeed in international stage of business, because the representation is usually not very good. I don't mean bribing. I mean just ... getting there and giving a good picture of yourself. We are just simple folks with no talking or communicating skills. Who do you think came up with IRC? A Finn did. Who do you think makes the most cell phones? Nokia does. Why do you think there are little less than 200 000 registered users in irc-gallery.fi (or something) where you have your pics etc online, and is online super community? Because we don't want to talk face to face with people we don't know. It's almost impossible. Try offering bribes? Jeesh! Talk about pressure..

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by VetLegion
I hate problems without solutions.

It has a solution, but a long and difficult one. It requires a strong system of values among those who can act on society as a whole: mostly, politicians and jounralists. Politicians in particular can be very effective, because modern societies are very hierarchised, and when you give an order of "zero tolerance" to those who work for you (and make an example of all those who don't follow the order, and who are known to do so), you'll often have it. How many policemen do you think will make you pay for the ticket, if the punishment for any such offense would be a huge fine, and if it was enforced? Heck, even on Eventis, the people avoid to abuse the server because the punishment for doing so is huge and enforced: an anti-social behaviour that was to be trendy has been killed very quickly.

However, it's easier said than done. On the one hand, the politicians who decide a strong "anti-favour" policy must be especially exemplary to the others. And when an underling must be punished, he should definitely not escape punishment thanks to his money/connections (this is why Berlusconi's anti-corruption policies were a failure, even though the result was still better than what Italy was before).

On the other hand, the new policies must have advantages for the population and for the honest servants. In the case of tickets, the advantage is fairly clear: you won't get harassed by a policeman giving you a speed ticket if you were under the limit, and any dangerous ass going way too fast will have his comeuppance in the end.
It's only once the people can feel the positive results that morals will evolve. Moralistic speeches can move the population for a short time, but if they remain only speeches, the population will continue business as usual, instead of becoming "suckers". If they see that practically nobody is out to make them into suckers, they'll most often enjoy the new order.

[VetLegion]

"nerd picking up a supermodel"

Well at least about jealousy I understand completely. Here we have a saying: "I'm okay that my cow died, if my neighbours' cow drops dead too". It's a rough translation, but the point is clear: you better don't stick out as particularly wealthy.

In fact, I think this is rather common thinking and only in USA it is different, there wealth is admired and respected without reserve. Or I might have romantic notions of USA, I don't know.

[Pekka]

Yeah.. I'm sure in the US it's more common though than in here, and seems like in there as well. You know.. 'good for you. You worked hard for it, good for you'. In here.. Shiiit.. hide it and never bring it up again .

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by VetLegion
Spiffor, you woudn't last long. In France or anywhere. Shunned by colleagues, [the tale of misery and horror]

You don't understand. I wouldn't be shunned by my colleagues. I would be the guy that has stood up against the traitor (i.e. the corrupt one). If I ratted out someone in my family, people would be unsettled (more loyalty to the job than to the family is creepy), but if I ratted out a corrupt colleague, I'd be seen as the one who did what had to be done. Providing the corruption is seen as bad" in the job, which is the case of most corruptions involving money.

[laurentius]

corruption is non productive and stupid, thus we cant afford it.

[VetLegion]

Yeah, like we can.



Spiffor, so, do you report fellow posters to mods?

[Spiffor]

Smartass
I report only spambots. The only time I remember having reported other posts was when a "moment of silence" thread was threatening to become ugly.
The difference is that I consider most "bad" behaviours as acceptable, even if they go against the rules (in particular, you'll never see me report a post with a nudie pic ). I'm a "live and let live" kind of guy, except when someone goes blatantly against the welfare of all others.