How corrupt is Finland?

[VetLegion]

I'm trying to determine is Finland really corruptionless (as organizations who track that report), or do you simply cover up your misdeeds very well up there in the cold north, where polar bears roam free


1) Are politicians in Finland rich?

2) If you are stopped for a traffic violation, can you make a deal with the traffic cop? Say, you forget 50 euros in your licence when you hand it to him, he returns it without the money and gives you a "stern reprimand" instead of a ticket.

3) How important are personal or family contacts in finding work and getting promoted (as opposed to merit)?

5) Do you know people who have bribed state officials, medical doctors or someone else? If not, have you heard of such cases from "dependable sources"?

6) Are there cases of people buying their way through university?

7) When was the last scandal involving government funds you can remember?

8) Do rich people somehow get lower sentences in courts?



Those are all questions I can remember right now, if you have something to add please do.

[Pekka]

Are politicians rich, no. They make OK salary, but they are not rich. Most have debts in fact.

No you can't make a deal with any cops. Seriously, do not try to bribe cops. No joke, don't even suggest it.

contacts, very important. That's how it works most of the times. Sad, but true.

where's number 4?

No I don't know anyone who has bribed state officials or medical doctors. It might exist in different form, like offering a deal back or such, but straight out cash offers, never heard of them, and I would not try them myself. Too risky. Most likely not accepted.

No. No one buys there way through university. It's a free school, meaning no tuition (except for what.. like less than 100 euros?). You can't buy your way through as a rule. I wouldn't dare suggesting it either. Also individuals do not give money to erect new buildings, so no.

Scandal involving gov funds.. I can't remember one. The 'scandals' that are in tabloids mostly are about the reps who used most their free cell phone, meaning they got the buggest phone bills, stuff like that. But it'll make us mad anyway.

Lower sentences. What do you mean lower sentences. Everyone gets the lower sentences. Rich people, I don't know, maybe they don't have to go to court at all.

The way it works in here, is that there is no way to work it around. The only way you might get benefits is if you know someone who can help you, that is good connections. And then depends what you need. It's next to impossible to buy people in here, because a) you don't have to money for it and b) IRS is a ***** and c) if someone finds out, cops will actually come and get you (but court will set you free, eventually).

So no not really.. I guess what we consider bribing is what happens everywhere and is not considered bribing, that is to use the expense count a lot and make someone drunk all the time and show them good time. Or give them good deals back and try to find some exclusivity going on. That's the only bribes I can think of. More like unethical instead of straight out criminal.

[Chemical Ollie]

Finland is the least corrupted nation in the world. That doesn't mean it's 100% clean though

[VetLegion]

Pekka thanks for the reply, I'll read it.

Originally posted by Chemical Ollie
Finland is the least corrupted nation in the world. That doesn't mean it's 100% clean though

Well isn't it at least a little suspicious to you? Why them? Why not, say, Singapore or Japan or something?

[Chemical Ollie]

Originally posted by VetLegion
Pekka thanks for the reply, I'll read it.



Well isn't it at least a little suspicious to you? Why them? Why not, say, Singapore or Japan or something?

Singapore? Are you kidding me? It's Finland, allright!

[VetLegion]

Originally posted by Pekka
Are politicians rich, no. They make OK salary, but they are not rich. Most have debts in fact.

Being a politician is one of the most lucrative jobs here.

No you can't make a deal with any cops. Seriously, do not try to bribe cops. No joke, don't even suggest it.

Weird. Who'd find out if they took a little on the side here and there? Here, cops sent to controll a busy road can make a looooot of money.

No I don't know anyone who has bribed state officials or medical doctors.

Health is provided by state, right? And there are lines for some diagnosis and operations? Strange how people wouldn't grease the wheels a little to become a priority for transplantation or something...

No. No one buys there way through university.

Scandal involving gov funds.. I can't remember one.

Alright, up until now I thought you were actually serious

[Pekka]

well yes tehre have been scandals, but they are mostly bad investments. Nothing criminal type. Except being stupid investor.

Paying to get faster treatment? If you have that kind of money, then you go to private doc, no waiting time. Why bribe when you could get it from better doctors anyway?
Besides, doctors make good money in here, so they don't need little pennies.

Being a politician is also one of the more lucrative jobs in here. But having a job in here means you won't be rich, and I'm not talking bling bling rich, I'm talking any kind of rich, driving Benz rich. You have to own your own company, or make excellent investments, or be criminal. Those are the ONLY 3 ways to become rich. But sure, politicians do make OK money and they are not poor, and are more than middle class, but they are not rich by default, not at all. Say they do their 4 job rotation, with all that salary, they can't even buy a house in here.

[Pekka]

But there is some corrupt behaviour in here too, that's for sure. But most of the dealings in here, not really, and the dark side they might have is mostly unethical deals, breaking the capitalist competition rules and such, to get ahead. An individual does not bribe another person in here. Tehre might be few exceptions, but only to make the rule. To offer bribes is most likely interpreted as an insult anyway, or just too risky. Word gets around fast... dishonesty is being treated as a bad attribute, and when you do it in society level, dealing with officials etc, word gets out, it gets hostile very soon and the lynching mob is on their way. So no.. not really.. I don't even expect to be offered any kind of bribes, no matter what position I was in. Nor would I offer bribes. In Mexico? I would offer bribes.

[VetLegion]

I've been thinking about corruption a lot lately (well, in the last half hour or so) and I have come to conclusion, and your replies confirm them, that it's all a house of cards really.

It rests on trust. What if one day, ONE Finn tries to bribe a cop. And he accepts. This spreads around in a chain reaction and sooner than you know it, your company is paying a percentage to get the contract and you can't do squat without pulling strings.

What is weird about Finland is that it is relatively small at about 5 million people, yes it is not really a everyone-knows-everyone situation, but refusing to do favors to people and cooperate would come back to you pretty fast and hit you in the head.

[Pekka]

No no no.. I'm not talking about not doing favours. But that's different, with no money involved. Of course you can do favours, but most likely you do them to people you know, thus connections. Good brother system works in here as well.

Sure there must be at least one who has offered bribes and at least one cop who has actualyl accepted it. No doubt. But it is not common. It's not even considered a remote possibility.

But if you want to make good deals, you can always entertain your clients and guests, but then again that's what everyone does and is not considered bribes.

You just can't get away with bribing, I mean the chances of it working are minimal, it might work every now and then, but every 19 out of 20 it won't, so do you ever even get to try the 20th attempt?

But you have to know ways to .. get things work faster. Sometimes it can't work, but sometimes it does. LIke me getting my passport, me getting my drivers license, me not paying 2 months worth of rent because I signed off the contract and I was supposed to be 2 extra months. Things like that are possible. Most Finns think it isn't possible, like you don't heckle here, unless you're buying a car. If you can find someone who heckles in public in here, outside car shop, you get 7 days, I'll buy you a beer. It is considered embarrasing by most. Same with leaving tips.

Basically, will the taxi driver drive faster if I promise him something extra? Most likely. But this isn't corrupt behaviour. Will I get better service in a bar if I give 5 euro tip to the bouncer? No. Will I get better service after I have given him 5 euros every single time, every weekend for a year? Yes. Will I get better and faster service if I leave 10 euros to the one making drinks? Yes, when that person starts remembering you, yes you will get faster service. But this is normal. And still rarely used .

[VetLegion]

Well, here we dong haggle either (except when buying used stuff or something like that), and tipping is also not necessary and if you don't tip you still get normal service.

BUT we regularly bribe traffic cops, and we regularly read about government officials' scandals. We don't trust our state apparatus one little bit.

[Pekka]

I hear you.. but it's still funny, we don't trust ours either, to certain extent I mean. But as far as true corrupt behaviour goes... sorry. No dice.. basically, this is oen of the very few thigns I'm happy and very satisfied in this country. Of course there are truly only few things that I am not satisfied, but .. yeah.. you can take my word on it, or not. But I'm serious. And it's not that my perception of things would be limited on this issue or differ from someone elses perception. This is the general feeling and how it goes.

[VetLegion]

And what about omerta? Well, not really omerta, but general loyalty.

I'm guessing you wouldn't rat out a family member/friend/colleague involved in corruption?

Say, you work for the government, your colleague at work takes bribes, would you turn him in? Of course not.

Also, if you employ people for the state, you are supposed to give priority to a whole range of people (friends, schoolmates, lovers, relatives, neighbours and whatnot) before you consider which candidate is actually best. We're a small country (4.5 million) and you have to do this. Your loyalty is not with the state, but with people you know. But since everyone does this, it destroys trust. And that sucks.

[VetLegion]

I don't even expect to be offered any kind of bribes, no matter what position I was in. Nor would I offer bribes. In Mexico? I would offer bribes.

This is sad really, because this means we can't just import a few thousand Finnish civil servants here and expect them to fix things. If they could eliminate corruption, the money spent on their paychecks would more than pay off. But they'd become corrupt too

I hate problems without solutions.

[Pekka]

Nah, it doesn't mean Finns are the most honest folks. We think we are, but it doesn't make it so. Yes, we would bribe if it was the .. way things are done.

Yes, connections is all where it's at. Of course, it's always someone who knew someone that gets the job.

Loyalty is considered a big thing naturally. Not to state, but to friends and family. But we are simple people, so there are things that are considered valuable and automatic, like favouritism (loyalty), honesty and that you do what you say, and also in the timeline. If you study business in here, we have to read books and be taught how it works in many other places. Basically, in here yes means yes, no means no and maybe means more likely yes but might mean no if the other one is just polite but annoyed. So it's very simple in here. You get what you see, and you see what you get. That's it.

The only crooked bastards are car sellers, always lying about the conditions of the car. But with officials, you won't get far with bribes. HOWEVER you do get far if you know them .