Europe and its Borders - your thoughts

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

It's hard to get 2 of each nationality to play nicely.

[Spiffor]

There was an excellent streak of documentaries on the issue on the French-German TV recently here (French) or here (German).

Europe is tightening its borders indeed, as several western European countries have basically stated they weren't interested in economic immigration, except skilled professionals (brain drain). In particular, the Spanish and the Italians have considerably improved their guard of their shores near North Africa. Besides, most North African countries are now fighting immigration (in particular, Lybia stops plenty of would-be european immigrants, stocks them in inhumane camps, before sending them home).

As always, Europe is very diverse. Countries treat their illegal aliens very differently. In Germany, the centres for asylum seekres are pretty cozy, while in France many asylum seekers must stay for days locked in the airport, in completely inadequate facilities (it's especially bad for hygiene and watering ).

I disagree with Cruddy when he says the political interest toward racism is a cause rather than a consequence. I guess this disagreement comes from different national experiences however. Over here, Le Pen has long been a major racist, as his party has existed since the 60ies or 70ies, though nobody heard of him by then. He became hugely popular in the mid-80ies, when he had a large access to TV to explain his views (it was a political gambit by Mitterrand to hurt his political opponents on the right ).
Since then, he has turned the issue of immigration and security -which are far from the most pressing and which are barely related- into major items on the agenda. To the point that the last presidential election was about these very issues, instead of the economy. However, when Le Pen doesn't campaign, the issue of immigration is fairly low on the radar.

[Kropotkin]

Assimilation vs. Integration: I would like Azazel to point at a few examples of short and middle term assimilation. And I would like to stress the difference between successfull integration and assimilation in this context.

Also, yes CI, just the concept of' 2nd generation immigrants' (a common term in swedish debates on the issue) is really proof enough, imho, of the problems that exists with integration in Sweden and elsewhere. Someone that's born in the country he lives in, should not really be regarded as an immigrant at all. However, this is not really an argument against the idea of integration per se. The concept of assimilation in the short run is simply unrealistic. This idea presumes the loss of all the characteristics that separates the immigrant group from the established population. Meatballs are nice, but I like kebab too.

Economic immigration: There's, imho, a lot of opportunites being lost with the hard treatement of economic migrants. These people have made a lot of effort just getting to Europe (or wherever). This indicates that they could be a positive resource for their host community if they could be integrated well.

[Combat Ingrid]

Kropo: I don't think the immigrants should assimilate in the sense that they leave all traces of their native culture behind:

Your biological and cultural distinctiveness will be added to our own.

[Az]

Assimilation vs. Integration: I would like Azazel to point at a few examples of short and middle term assimilation. And I would like to stress the difference between successfull integration and assimilation in this context.

The Soviet Union's jews.
Immigrants to France, historically.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Azazel
Immigrants to France, historically.

[Dinner]

I always thought you were to reasonable to be a Frenchman. Clearly, the gaulic obstinence hasn't had enough time to fully seep into your DNA yet.

[:) Smiley]

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse
Speaking from a country with over 150 nationalities represented in the population - assimilation never works, multiculturalism is the way forward.

I visit Europe fairly regularly and its clear that big cities like Paris would grind to a halt without their "illegal" migrants - they do all the dirty but essential jobs like kitchen hands, cleaners, domestic staff, road gangs. Jobs that French people don't want to do. Its very striking in Paris because many of these people are black Africans.

In the end you have 2 choices - integrate these people into your society or kick them out. Both options have occurred in the past, and probably will again depending on national circumstances.

Assimilation doesn't work for the first generation, but there's great potential with subsequent ones.

Success of such depends on the amount of social mobility, so people will define themselves by what they want to be rather than by what they are born as.