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  • Europe and its Borders - your thoughts

    Conveniently timed to coincide with the second annual European Day of Action, let this be a discussion of the problems of undocumented migrants (sans papiers, if you will) in Europe.

    First, a couple of facts:

    There are roughly 55 million undocumented migrants in Europe alone (160-200M in the world, but that's a discussion for another thread).

    Europe has a network of refugee/detention camps designed to accomodate migrants until the government decides what to do with them.

    There is a large political reaction against migrants even as the European economies lag and population rates continue to decline. Le Pen and whoever the guy was in the Netherlands are the most prominent examples of this, but right wing and even centrist parties are taking up the banner.

    And now for the biased bit:

    The concept of human rights has been tied unjustly to the rights of the citizen. In the case of these undocumented migrants, they "belong" to no state, and therefore, they have no larger body to protect their rights. Any rights they may accrue during their sojourn in a particular country are "granted." They are a privilege. Given that privileges are something that one can take away, this is an unfortunate development.

    Concerning the system of camps: apparently, these are not pleasant sites. People are put into them, and often remain there for as long as two years, they are stripped of any human dignity they once possessed. They have no voice, and at times go to extreme measures to regain that voice (some guy sewed his lips together to symbolize his voicelessness. Others assuredly engage in similar activities).

    Even outside of these camps, there is an aura of oppression surrounding treatment of these people. In Brescia, Italy, migrants are, through housing policies, forced to only buy houses in one particular area, now known as Little Darkar. There is a system of police harrassment, in effect a trampling of rights.

    Essentially, two trends have been going on in Europe. First, as internal borders are loosened, exterior borders are being strengthened. There have been major initiatives monitor the entire Mediterranean, using a very expensive system of ships, aircraft, and land-based radar networks (operation Ulysses, now cancelled, is a prime example). Borders are also being thickened. Morocco essentially functions as a border, in that Europe runs refugee camps inside Morocco, and puts huge economic pressure on Morocco to heavily patrol its southern border.

    Second, inside Europe, people are being made to live as borders. It does not matter how long people have been living in Europe, they are deemed "not European" and shunned from the culture. This has the effect of forcing these people to band together, and discourages them from adopting to local cultures, thus propogating fears of the right. The new international focus on terrorism has made many governments view these people as potential terrorists, and to label them all as "dangerous classes."

    Naturally, the less these people are granted rights, the more these people are stereotyped, the more these people are harrassed, the more they are likely to resort to violence. Violence has always been assumed to be the last refuge of the voiceless (look at the mideast - completely voiceless young men instantly transform themselves into international headlines by blowing themselves up), and the more European policies continue in this trend, the more likely it is that Europe will start to experience more of these sorts of incidents.

    But most of that is coming out of a liberal arts college. What do we know? I am curious to hear the viewpoint of Europeans on this issue.
    "Remember, there's good stuff in American culture, too. It's just that by "good stuff" we mean "attacking the French," and Germany's been doing that for ages now, so, well, where does that leave us?" - Elok

  • #2
    the Europeans are asleep right now
    Any views I may express here are personal and certainly do not in any way reflect the views of my employer. Tis the rising of the moon..

    Look, I just don't anymore, okay?

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    • #3
      Yeah, but they won't be asleep forever. And in the meantime, it can turn into a reprise of Diss's minuteman thread.
      "Remember, there's good stuff in American culture, too. It's just that by "good stuff" we mean "attacking the French," and Germany's been doing that for ages now, so, well, where does that leave us?" - Elok

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Europe and its Borders - your thoughts

        Originally posted by Admiral


        There are roughly 55 million undocumented migrants in Europe alone (160-200M in the world, but that's a discussion for another thread).
        If they are undocumented, how do you know their numbers?


        Originally posted by Admiral
        Europe has a network of refugee/detention camps designed to accomodate migrants until the government decides what to do with them.

        There is a large political reaction against migrants even as the European economies lag and population rates continue to decline. Le Pen and whoever the guy was in the Netherlands are the most prominent examples of this, but right wing and even centrist parties are taking up the banner.
        umm... you are putting the cart before the horse. What is happening (in the UK at least) is that more people are taking it as an issue... hence the politicians interest in in.

        Personally, I'm not that bothered about "undocumented" migrants as much as concerned for their welfare. "Undocumented" migrants outside the system (and hence outside those camps you were talking about) are usually exploited as slave manual or sexual labour, drug mules etc.

        The ones who enter the camps are at less risk of that sort of exploitation, at least.

        Originally posted by Admiral
        And now for the biased bit:

        The concept of human rights has been tied unjustly to the rights of the citizen. In the case of these undocumented migrants, they "belong" to no state, and therefore, they have no larger body to protect their rights. Any rights they may accrue during their sojourn in a particular country are "granted." They are a privilege. Given that privileges are something that one can take away, this is an unfortunate development.
        As far as I am aware European Bill of Rights now applies within all EU countries...

        Originally posted by Admiral

        Concerning the system of camps: apparently, these are not pleasant sites. People are put into them, and often remain there for as long as two years, they are stripped of any human dignity they once possessed. They have no voice, and at times go to extreme measures to regain that voice (some guy sewed his lips together to symbolize his voicelessness. Others assuredly engage in similar activities).
        Indeed, they are inadequate, miserable places. More should be built to help with overcrowding, but all too often possible sites are opposed by local NIMBY residents (Not in My Back Yard).

        Originally posted by Admiral
        Even outside of these camps, there is an aura of oppression surrounding treatment of these people. In Brescia, Italy, migrants are, through housing policies, forced to only buy houses in one particular area, now known as Little Darkar. There is a system of police harrassment, in effect a trampling of rights.
        Police hassle anyone they think they can bully. Treatment of migrant workers varies greatly from country to country.

        Originally posted by Admiral
        Essentially, two trends have been going on in Europe. First, as internal borders are loosened, exterior borders are being strengthened.
        News to me!

        Originally posted by Admiral


        Second, inside Europe, people are being made to live as borders. It does not matter how long people have been living in Europe, they are deemed "not European" and shunned from the culture. This has the effect of forcing these people to band together, and discourages them from adopting to local cultures, thus propogating fears of the right. The new international focus on terrorism has made many governments view these people as potential terrorists, and to label them all as "dangerous classes."
        Again, this differs a lot from country to country, and individuals within a country have different attitudes.

        I would consider anyone who adopts "British" attitudes to be British (fair play, working within the law, and stout opposisition to tyrannies are 3 examples of British attitudes.

        Other Brits wouldn't agree.

        Originally posted by Admiral
        Naturally, the less these people are granted rights, the more these people are stereotyped, the more these people are harrassed, the more they are likely to resort to violence. Violence has always been assumed to be the last refuge of the voiceless (look at the mideast - completely voiceless young men instantly transform themselves into international headlines by blowing themselves up), and the more European policies continue in this trend, the more likely it is that Europe will start to experience more of these sorts of incidents.

        But most of that is coming out of a liberal arts college. What do we know? I am curious to hear the viewpoint of Europeans on this issue.
        Violence towards immigrants inevitably brings out a backlash of violence.

        Which is why I accept migrant workers rather than getting on their backs.
        Some cry `Allah O Akbar` in the street. And some carry Allah in their heart.
        "The CIA does nothing, says nothing, allows nothing, unless its own interests are served. They are the biggest assembly of liars and theives this country ever put under one roof and they are an abomination" Deputy COS (Intel) US Army 1981-84

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        • #5
          Re: Europe and its Borders - your thoughts

          Originally posted by Admiral
          Second, inside Europe, people are being made to live as borders. It does not matter how long people have been living in Europe, they are deemed "not European" and shunned from the culture. This has the effect of forcing these people to band together, and discourages them from adopting to local cultures, thus propogating fears of the right. The new international focus on terrorism has made many governments view these people as potential terrorists, and to label them all as "dangerous classes."
          There is a problem with racism against immigrants, that some people think they are foreigners just because they have darker skin, even if they have otherwise assimilated themselves into the mainstream culture. A bigger problem, IMO, is that (at least in Sweden) the government is firmly against assimilation of the immigrants. You often hear things like "integration-absolutely, assimilation-absolutely not", or that "it's not the immigrants who should adapt to us, but we who should adapt to the immigrants". And then they wonder why our society has become so segregated
          The enemy cannot push a button if you disable his hand.

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          • #6
            55 million 'undocumented' migrants sounds like a gross exaggeration to me - that's more than 10% of the EU population!

            Some of the things in the original post ring true, others are pretty fanciful - immigrants being labelled 'not European'? A good portion of the immigrants who try to get into the EU are exactly that - European, coming from former Warsaw pact countries that haven't been admitted to the EU yet. In any case, it strikes me as highly unlikely that illegal immigrants are being labelled as 'not European' instead of 'not British' or 'not German' first.

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            • #7
              CI: The change of retorics from assimilation to integration in the 70s or so was and is due to the fact that assimilation of new immigrants is unrealistic.

              Comment


              • #8
                Asian Dub Foundation - Fortress Europe

                Comment


                • #9


                  There is a problem with racism against immigrants, that some people think they are foreigners just because they have darker skin, even if they have otherwise assimilated themselves into the mainstream culture. A bigger problem, IMO, is that (at least in Sweden) the government is firmly against assimilation of the immigrants. You often hear things like "integration-absolutely, assimilation-absolutely not", or that "it's not the immigrants who should adapt to us, but we who should adapt to the immigrants". And then they wonder why our society has become so segregated


                  Combat Ingrid & Assimilation

                  Sandman: assimilation of immigrants is very realistic. There are plenty of cases where it worked very well.
                  urgh.NSFW

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Kropotkin
                    CI: The change of retorics from assimilation to integration in the 70s or so was and is due to the fact that assimilation of new immigrants is unrealistic.
                    True, first-generation immigrants cannot be expected to assimilate fully. However, the aim should be that their kids become Swedish in the first place and second-generation immigrants secondly. Currently, it's rather the other way around and I think that's a major factor why so many immigrant kids have a problem finding their identity. They are like foreigners both here and in their "native" land
                    The enemy cannot push a button if you disable his hand.

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                    • #11
                      Speaking from a country with over 150 nationalities represented in the population - assimilation never works, multiculturalism is the way forward.

                      I visit Europe fairly regularly and its clear that big cities like Paris would grind to a halt without their "illegal" migrants - they do all the dirty but essential jobs like kitchen hands, cleaners, domestic staff, road gangs. Jobs that French people don't want to do. Its very striking in Paris because many of these people are black Africans.

                      In the end you have 2 choices - integrate these people into your society or kick them out. Both options have occurred in the past, and probably will again depending on national circumstances.
                      Any views I may express here are personal and certainly do not in any way reflect the views of my employer. Tis the rising of the moon..

                      Look, I just don't anymore, okay?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I visit Europe fairly regularly and its clear that big cities like Paris would grind to a halt without their "illegal" migrants - they do all the dirty but essential jobs like kitchen hands, cleaners, domestic staff, road gangs. Jobs that French people don't want to do. Its very striking in Paris because many of these people are black Africans.
                        That's a myth that constantly surfaces when it comes to discussions of immigrants and it's quite old as well.
                        I think it mixes cause and effect.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Eupore needs straighter borders. Having squiggly borders is just asking for trouble.
                          “As a lifelong member of the Columbia Business School community, I adhere to the principles of truth, integrity, and respect. I will not lie, cheat, steal, or tolerate those who do.”
                          "Capitalism ho!"

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                          • #14
                            Re: Re: Europe and its Borders - your thoughts

                            Originally posted by Cruddy
                            I would consider anyone who adopts "British" attitudes to be British (fair play, working within the law, and stout opposisition to tyrannies are 3 examples of British attitudes.

                            Other Brits wouldn't agree.
                            Yeah, I'd go with apathy, binge drinking and casual violence.
                            Concrete, Abstract, or Squoingy?
                            "I don't believe in giving scripting languages because the only additional power they give users is the power to create bugs." - Mike Breitkreutz, Firaxis

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                            • #15
                              Speaking from a country with over 150 nationalities represented in the population - assimilation never works, multiculturalism is the way forward.


                              Just because you've failed, or never tried, doesn't mean it doesn't work.
                              urgh.NSFW

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