Biggest Mistakes the Axis made iyo.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Ned
Molly, I can provide you maps of Bohemia and Moravia being part of the HRE. Are these maps incorrect?

Unnecessary. Was the Holy Roman Empire a German state ?

No.

Were its rulers invariably German ?

No.


Were the lands which comprised the Holy Roman Empire only German, or populated by Germans ?

No.


It was also neither holy, nor Roman, nor an empire.



You are of course still labouring under the delusion that somehow Hitler's Germany was legal successor to the Holy Roman Empire- or for that matter, to the Austro-Hungarian Empire.

It wasn't.

[Ecthy]

did the HRE ever matter in the 20th century?

no, no and fvck no

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by molly bloom
You are of course still labouring under the delusion that somehow Hitler's Germany was legal successor to the Holy Roman Empire- or for that matter, to the Austro-Hungarian Empire.

Well yes, but the National Socialist Party was a worker's party, so they took great pride at laboring under delusions.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Ecthelion
did the HRE ever matter in the 20th century?

no, no and fvck no

Given that it had ceased to exist in 1815, I am more than inclined to agree with you.


It seems that in the Nedaverse, there is this unbroken chain, where the Imperial coronet is passed from Habsburgs to Hohenzollerns and then on to Hitler.


It also seems that Ned chooses to ignore the states and territories that weren't in modern day Germany or didn't have a German majority, or German culture, and also the history of the Kingdom of Bohemia, the Greater Moravian Empire and all those awkward Emperors who didn't take the trouble of being born on what was to become German soil or to parents of German stock or culture.


Still, it makes sense if you want to continue portraying Hitler as somehow being the legitimate heir of Barbarossa, or Maria Theresa, and to blame Great Britain and France for 'starting' WWII.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
Well yes, but the National Socialist Party was a worker's party, so they took great pride at laboring under delusions.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by molly bloom
Unnecessary. Was the Holy Roman Empire a German state ?

No.

Were its rulers invariably German ?

No.

Well, after the 15th Century, yes and yes.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


Well, after the 15th Century, yes and yes.

Treaty of Westphalia (1648) is a better cut-off date for the decrease in non-German territories of the H.R.E. .


The H.R.E. was never 'a' 'German' 'state'- a loose confederation of territories governed by an emperor of the usual mixed European royal ancestries is not a German state.

[Ned]

Molly, reference the Hitler speech I quoted earlier in this thread where he is talking to Roosevelt in 1939, IIRC, about an ancient Reich and that the lands now subject to the Third Reich were subject to this ancient Reich.

What was he talking about? I think it is natural to think he is talking about the empire of Charlemagne, its Frankish predecessors, and its HRE successors. But I may be wrong.

[BlackCat]

So what if he referred to such ancient empires. That does in no way legitimate his claims. If your logic should be followed, then hitler should willingly have given great parts of northern germany to Denmark because they for centuries had been danish territory.

[Ned]

Originally posted by BlackCat
So what if he referred to such ancient empires. That does in no way legitimate his claims. If your logic should be followed, then hitler should willingly have given great parts of northern germany to Denmark because they for centuries had been danish territory.

My logic? The question I am asking is what did Hitler mean when he was talking about the Third Reich being of ancient lineage and that Czechoslovakia had been subject to its sovereignity.

[BlackCat]

Since you defend hitlers claims, reasoning and their legitimacy, I find it very natural to think that you accept the logic behind.

[Ned]

Here is a bit on what Hitler probably meant: the East Frankish Kingdom, a successor state to Charlemagne's Empire.

"The political structure called The Empire in most historical text grew out of the EAST FRANKISH KINGDOM, the kingdom which developed into Germany, and the Kings of which, in the succession of Charlemagne, were to monopolize the title of Emperor. This East Frankish Kingdom, over time, integrated the Duchy of Lorraine, the Kingdoms of Italy and Burgundy and Slavic regions to the east of the Elbe and the Böhmerwald. Over time, the name "East Frankish" came out of use and was was, in contemporary sources, replaced by ROMAN KING. This attribute expressed the claim on the title of Emperor (which many 'Roman' kings failed to achieve, because of a hostile pope), not the control of Rome. In this context we refer to the combination of the Kingdoms of the East Franks, of Italy and Burgundy in the later middle ages as to the Empire, despite the fact that often it was without an emperor, only ruled by a king.
Many modern historians refer to the Empire as German; medieval sources do not, and despite the fact that in the Empire the was dominated by the German element, there were large regions populated by speakers of Italian, French / Provencal and of Slavic languages. To say that f.ex. Bohemia, in the middle ages, was part of Germany, is disputable."

http://www.zum.de/whkmla/region/germany/lmaempstruc.html

[Ned]

Map:

[Dr Strangelove]

Who cares? There's a group called "Christian Identity" who claim that all Jews are fake and that only Christians, especially English Christians, are the true children of Israel and the Chosen people. The fact that they claim this doesn't make it right. The fact that Hitler claimed that his Nazi state was the rightful heir to the German Empire and the Holy Roman Empire or the Kingdom of the Franks doesn't make his claims right, nor did it entitle him to the lands formerly incorporated in either of those two defunct states.

[Ned]

Blackcat, in the words of many critics of US/Brit action against Iraq, the Brit/French war on Germany declared on Sept. 3, 1939 was

"elective."

Whether the Brit interference and subsequent declaration of war was justified truly depends on one's point of view regarding Versailles. As America found that treaty to be abhorent, a rape of Germany and unsignable, Americans can actually see some arguments that favor the German point of view, although Germany's actions during the war have to receive utter condemnation by all. But, one wonders, truly wonders, if the lives of tens of millions, including 6 million Jews, could have been saved had Britain not intervened and declared war.