Let's talk about European antisemitism

[Drake Tungsten]

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3062948,00.html

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3055272,00.html

Seems Israel is still popular as a political football in Europe...

[Spiffor]

That's funny, I heard about the controversy on Barthez in Israel, on French TV today. I don't know what is antisemitic with that, especially when you know the man (he criticizes pretty much everything, including the football scene from which he's disgusted, and which he'll leave next year).

I also don't see the link between the Irish article and antisemitism

[Drake Tungsten]

I was just offering up some slightly absurd examples of European anti-Israeli sentiment. Might not have anything to do with anti-Semitism; it's frankly hard to tell where one ends and one begins anymore.

[Spiffor]

Well, how would you define "anti-Israeli sentiment" and "antisemitism"?

[Drake Tungsten]

"Anti-Israel" means dislike or hatred for the state of Israel and its actions. "Anti-semitism" means dislike or hatred for Jews. The two often go hand in hand, though, with the former being a convenient cover to mask the presence of the latter...

[Ned]

Even the most ardent European supporter of the Arab cause to extinquish the state of Israel must acknowledge some European guilt and responsibility for Jews to seek out their own homeland outside of Europe as a place of refuge.

[Sandman]

A challenge for the 'Europe is anti-semitic' crowd:

Can you come up with a single European poster (Jewish or otherwise) here on Poly who agrees with your core assertions?

[Ned]

Originally posted by Sandman
A challenge for the 'Europe is anti-semitic' crowd:

Can you come up with a single European poster (Jewish or otherwise) here on Poly who agrees with your core assertions?

Sandman, are their any non Jewish Europeans who support Zionism?

[dannubis]

Originally posted by Ned
Even the most ardent European supporter of the Arab cause to extinquish the state of Israel must acknowledge some European guilt and responsibility for Jews to seek out their own homeland outside of Europe as a place of refuge.

again, and again and again...

the average european doesn't want the state of israel to be extinguished. far from it. however, most of us do not blindly believe the fact that any action taken by the israeli state is morally superior or inferior to the actions taken by palestinians.

and the big thing is that towards the state of israel a certain amount of accountablility can be applied, whereas towards shady terrorist organisations it's impossible to do this.

personally i don't mind if they blow up a terrorist attacker. i applaud the fact that sometimes they can and do get a big shot in a terrorist organisation. however, once 'collateral damage' is accepted, you have descended to the same level as terrorists. and we don't deal with terrorists, now do we ?

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Ned
Sandman, are their any non Jewish Europeans who support Zionism?

I can count at least myself and Heresson, as he has explicitely stated that srael shouldn't be destroyed (zionism is the support of Israel's existence).

I cannot think of any European or otherwise poster here that has expressed his wish to see Israel destroyed, which would be antizionism (well, Sava is an exception, as he wants the whole region destroyed without discrimination).

Please answer Sandman, and come up with a single European poster (Jewish or otherwise) here on Poly who agrees with your core assertions.

[Sirotnikov]

I can count at least myself and Heresson, as he has explicitely stated that srael shouldn't be destroyed (zionism is the support of Israel's existence).

Its not as easy is that.

Zionism means the belief in the moral and historical right of Jews to have a national homeland in Israel, and a respect the religious and national link and heritage of Jewish holy places (temple mount, hebron graves, nablus graves etc).


Do you think that Israel shouldn't be destroyed because you think it is morally and historically right that Israel should exist at its present location? Or do you simply think that destroying it would be too bothersome / unstabilizing?

The latter doesn't make you a zionist - rather a european with a fear of change and a lack of respect for principals and ideology

[Sirotnikov]

most of us do not blindly believe the fact that any action taken by the israeli state is morally superior or inferior to the actions taken by palestinians.

do you or do you not morally equate between

a) the intentional and knowing targetting of innocent civilians

b) the (at times somwhat reckless) targetting of militants and the leaders of para-military organizations which are engaged in warfare but also (against the rules of war) hide among civilian population?

are those morally equal in your eyes?

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov
Zionism means the belief in the moral and historical right of Jews to have a national homeland in Israel, and a respect the religious and national link and heritage of Jewish holy places (temple mount, hebron graves, nablus graves etc).

If you define it like this, I don't see how antizionism could be seen as antisemitism then. According to such a definition, being in favour of zionism would be to actually favour one population (the Jews) over another.
If you link antizionism and antisemitism (which you haven't explicitely done, but Ned has, so this comment is adressed to him), a good analogy would be to say that anybody who opposes the Serbian domination over Kosovo is generally prejudices/racist/bigoted toward the Serbian people. This propaganda was probably fed to the Serbians, but it doesn't make it true.

Do you think that Israel shouldn't be destroyed because you think it is morally and historically right that Israel should exist at its present location? Or do you simply think that destroying it would be too bothersome / unstabilizing?

I think Israel has no ancient historical right to exist. The very notion of ancient historical right is bunk. However, Israel has a modern "historcial right" to exist, in that the country is built already, there are Israelis living there for generations, and it is their land. The Israelis shouldn't see their land stripped away.
In any case, as much as I support the continued existence of the Israeli State (which is a question of principle and not mere tactics, although my principles aren't "zionist" according to your definition), I can't wait to see the country finally become the Israeli country instead of the Jewish country. The Israelis would benefit immensely from not allowing a millenia-old tradition to interfere in their politics.

[General Ludd]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov

I can count at least myself and Heresson, as he has explicitely stated that srael shouldn't be destroyed (zionism is the support of Israel's existence).

Its not as easy is that.

Zionism means the belief in the moral and historical right of Jews to have a national homeland in Israel, and a respect the religious and national link and heritage of Jewish holy places (temple mount, hebron graves, nablus graves etc).


Do you think that Israel shouldn't be destroyed because you think it is morally and historically right that Israel should exist at its present location? Or do you simply think that destroying it would be too bothersome / unstabilizing?

The latter doesn't make you a zionist - rather a european with a fear of change and a lack of respect for principals and ideology

Like-wise, wanting to see an end to israel does not neccisarily mean you are anti-zionist.

[Brent]

So you want to decide for the Jews what's good for them? Okay then, what's good for them?