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This idea of ordinary people with no conscience is pretty radical and kind of terrifying. Why are so few of us aware of it?
Because we aren't looking for it. We don't imagine that there are human beings that exist without a conscience. And when we encounter it, we reinterpret it in all kinds of ways. Because who is going to believe you when you say that your psychotherapist lied to you in order to make you end up in restraints? Or that your colleague stole your briefcase to make you look bad? Or that a high-ranking political figure broke his secretary's arm? It's the sort of thing that makes people feel crazy, rather than making them feel like the other person is crazy.
How did you first become aware of these people?
I've been a therapist for trauma survivors for 25 years. I would listen to story after story, and I began to wonder about these people who were hurting my patients. They sounded so different from the rest of humanity. We have this feeling that if one person is capable of doing something, then under certain circumstances we would all be capable of doing the same thing. I no longer think that's true. I think that 4 percent of us can do anything at all without guilt or remorse. And I do mean anything.
How did you arrive at the 4 percent figure? Most of what I've read about conscienceless people puts the rate at about 1 percent.
It is confusing. It's confusing even if you know about psychological studies and how to compare them. Most of the data that we have still has to do with incarcerated felons -- usually men who have been violent. There is very little data on non-incarcerated nonviolent sociopaths, and even less data on women than men. But we are increasingly finding that sociopathy is as common among women as it is among men.
I looked at it all, and given the increasing data about women, I came to the conclusion that it was approximately 4 percent.
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And that's why we don't see them as criminals? Because beating someone is a crime, but harming them emotionally is not?
Exactly. Getting someone fired or tormenting your children is usually pretty private and not always actionable.
What makes you decide that a person is or isn't a sociopath?
Conceptually, for the purposes of the book, I'm talking about people who have exhibited symptoms such as extreme chronic deceitfulness, lack of remorse, lack of personal responsibility, and a general desire to control people and make them jump.
Clinically speaking, if someone is suspected of sociopathy, then the therapist would consider the DSM [The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders IV's assessment for antisocial personality disorder] and apply the Hare inventory [the Psychopathy Checklist developed by Dr. Robert Hare]. Then we would talk to other people in the person's family and in that person's past and try to pin down the diagnosis.
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What does it mean to lack a conscience?
It's a completely alien mindset. Most of us can imagine what it's like to have depression or even be crazy. But not having a conscience? You can't love anyone, even your own children? I believe that conscience, or lack of it, is a much more fundamental distinction than our moods or sense of rationality. All of us can be a little irrational. But our capacity to be emotionally linked to other people is much more fundamental, so much so that we don't even think about it. You don't ask yourself if you're going to give your child lunch money. You don't think of that as making a choice.
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Are the majority of sociopaths committing really heinous crimes?
No. Most sociopaths are not violent and probably never will be. They are the people we see every day: The boss who likes to ridicule people. The seduce-and-abandon lover who does this mainly for fun. The person who marries for money or prestige and no apparent other reason. These people aren't necessarily serial killers, but they cause a lot of harm.
So how do you know if your boss is a sociopath or just a jerk?
If you have a jerk boss who's lazy and always wants you to do things at the last minute, or asks for unreasonable things like making coffee, that's not necessarily sociopathy. If you have a boss who likes to ridicule people and make them jump and seems to get a kick out if it, that's more likely to be sociopathy. It's motivation.
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Is a conscience something you're born with?
About 50 percent of the variant seems to be accounted for by heredity. The other 50 percent would be shaped by something in the environment. The interesting thing is that we haven't been able to determine what that is. Everyone's first guess is child abuse, but it turns out that as group they haven't been abused any more than any other group.
Can it actually be an advantage to be a sociopath?
For a while it can be an advantage. But most sociopaths end not with a bang but a whimper. There's not much on this planet for us except our relations with other living forms. So for sociopaths, it's a fairly barren landscape. In the end it can't work out, but for a while it looks like it does.
Interesting.
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