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  • So, Drake, since you know so much about MRIs, what is the MRI going to tell us that hasn't been told by the other tests? Clinging to the MRI is simply childish and shows a lack of understanding about what it means.



    Are brain injured, comatose patients aware? - Using MRI scans of the brain, a new study in the journal Neurology found that patients who are brain damaged and minimally responsive may be capable of displaying the same type of brain activity to various external stimuli as healthy patients. Does this mean that they are aware? Maybe. Maybe not. We still don't know enough about consciousness to understand if certain brain activity equates to awareness. But this didn't stop the New York Times from taking an apple and trying to convince its readers that it's an orange!
    Dr. Bernat [professor of neurology at Dartmouth] said findings from studies like these would be relevant to cases like that of Terri Schiavo, a Florida woman with brain damage who has been kept alive for years against her husband's wishes. In that case, which drew the attention of Gov. Jeb Bush and the Legislature, relatives of Ms. Schiavo disagreed about her condition, and a brain-imaging test - once it has been standardized - could help determine whether brain damage has extinguished awareness.
    Ms. Schiavo suffered severe brain damage from a cardiac arrest and a lack of blood flow and oxygen to her brain. She is kept alive with a feeding tube in her stomach.

    When ever a part of the body is severely and irreversibly injured it tends to atrophy (shrink). In the case of Ms. Schiavo, CAT scans have shown that ever since her cardiac arrest her cerebral cortex (that outer layer of the brain that allows us to think and to be conscious and self aware) has atrophied so much that little is left and the rest has been replaced by cerebrospinal fluid.

    If one of these functional MRI tests were done on Ms. Schiavo to see if her brain could react to external stimuli there would not be enough of her brain left for the MRI to detect such a reaction. Any reactions that are seen in Ms. Schiavo's brain during such a test (in the deeper autonomic areas) would likely just confuse the issue since we still have no way of knowing if these reactions mean that there is consciousness and would draw attention away from what we do know; that the thinking part of Ms. Schiavo's brain is gone thus making consciousness extremely unlikely.

    What's more is that Dr. Bernstein points out that the study in question used patients who were in a minimally conscious state and by definition, patients in such a state are still capable of awareness. Terry Schiavo is in what is clinically described as a Persistent Vegetative State in which the brain damage is so severe that there is no conscious self-awareness.
    And that's a doctor who knows something about it, not a preacher.

    Your persistent efforts to smear Micheal Schiavo with distortions on reality are really awesome, though! Keep it up!
    Tutto nel mondo è burla

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    • well said dan
      When you find yourself arguing with an idiot, you might want to rethink who the idiot really is.
      "It can't rain all the time"-Eric Draven
      Being dyslexic is hard work. I don't even try anymore.

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      • If I were a doctor, I would disregard the court's orders and fulfill my oath.
        I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

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        • So, Drake, since you know so much about MRIs, what is the MRI going to tell us that hasn't been told by the other tests?


          It's going to give us highly detailed imaging of her brain, you dolt. Isn't that obvious?
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          ASHER FOR CEO!!
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          • Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
            It's going to give us highly detailed imaging of her brain, you dolt. Isn't that obvious?
            This isn't an answer, this is an evasion.

            Which will tell us what that hasn't been told by other tests and isn't obvious by now?

            Did you read the above post? Care to explain how the MRI is going to miraculously give some previously-unknown cure for Terry Schiavo's vegetative state?
            Tutto nel mondo è burla

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            • Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
              an MRI does not detect brain wave activity...


              It does offer the most detailed scans of a brain available, though. Are you seriously saying that you can accurately determine a brain damaged patient's condition without access to quality scans of the brain? What am I saying? Of course you are...
              go to yahoo and find out what an MRI does... kthx... or go talk to a neurologist... maybe if they were looking for cancer an MRI would be useful

              oh, Boris

              DanS I guess he only likes the law when it agrees with his ideology

              I just hope you never get stuck in a vegetative state... but doing so would probably be the only way you can understand what Terri is suffering through.
              To us, it is the BEAST.

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              • It's not going to miraculoulsy provide a cure. It would give us the most detailed view of her brain to date, something any thinking person would want to have before condemning her to death.
                KH FOR OWNER!
                ASHER FOR CEO!!
                GUYNEMER FOR OT MOD!!!

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                • Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
                  It's not going to miraculoulsy provide a cure. It would give us the most detailed view of her brain to date, something any thinking person would want to have before condemning her to death.
                  MRI's only give a picture of the tissues, they don't measure activity... i.e. THEY ARE OF NO USE WHATSOEVER IN THIS CASE


                  kthx
                  To us, it is the BEAST.

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                  • They're claiming her cerebral cortex has turned to liquid based on an antiquated scan. You really don't want to use modern technology to make sure this is true? You guys are unbelievable...

                    Not to mention that Boris just linked to an article discussing MRI scanning of brain activity and it's usefulness. Inconsistent opponents...
                    KH FOR OWNER!
                    ASHER FOR CEO!!
                    GUYNEMER FOR OT MOD!!!

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                    • Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
                      They're claiming her cerebral cortex has turned to liquid based on an antiquated scan.
                      oops I saw it nm

                      You really don't want to use modern technology to make sure this is true? You guys are unbelievable...
                      they've already used modern technology to determine she is PVS... how much more does this woman have to suffer? do you honestly think these whacko fundies will stop their protests no matter what tests they do?
                      To us, it is the BEAST.

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                      • they've already used modern technology to determine she is PVS...


                        No, they went mainly on one experts opinion. An expert who is notorious for diagnosing people as in a PVS in court, if that New Republic online piece is accurate.

                        do you honestly think these whacko fundies will stop their protests no matter what tests they do?


                        I don't care about what the "whacko fundies" you're so afraid of think. I care about whether or not I'm satisfied with the reasoning given to kill this woman. I'm not, not by a long shot...
                        KH FOR OWNER!
                        ASHER FOR CEO!!
                        GUYNEMER FOR OT MOD!!!

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                        • Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
                          Not to mention that Boris just linked to an article discussing MRI scanning of brain activity and it's usefulness. Inconsistent opponents...
                          Of course, if you were intelligent enough to understand the article, you'd see that the doctor was explaining exactly why an MRI scanning of brain activity would be useless in Terry Schiavo's particular case.
                          Tutto nel mondo è burla

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                          • I never said I wanted to scan for brain activity in Terri Schiavo. I was just pointing out that Sava was arguing that MRI's can't image brain activity right after you said they could.
                            KH FOR OWNER!
                            ASHER FOR CEO!!
                            GUYNEMER FOR OT MOD!!!

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                            • After rereading this thread a bit I have stated that I remain neutral on what is going on, if you remove the tube All I say is dont let her starve to death. And dont need a brush up on murder guys. My dad commited that crime when i was 16 and went to jail for it so i pretty much know what that definition is.
                              When you find yourself arguing with an idiot, you might want to rethink who the idiot really is.
                              "It can't rain all the time"-Eric Draven
                              Being dyslexic is hard work. I don't even try anymore.

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                              • Regardless, I can find no corroboration for Rev. Johansen's claim that no MRI was ever performed on Schiavo. I've seen several web pages claiming such, but they all seem to be sourcing Johansen or providing no source whatsoever. I've also seen several sites discussing the previous results of MRIs on Schiavo. So I'm inclined to distrust Johansen's claim. I suspect he's distorted the fact that Greer ordered a cessation to more MRIs being done, as the family was using them as means of prologing things rather than there being any real chance more MRIs would come up with some miracle.
                                Tutto nel mondo è burla

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