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  • Dark Energy/Zero-Point Energy/Tesla

    This is like a far-out physics trifecta...

    As the following article points out, the effects of dark energy -- which composes some 75% of the universe's mass -- are being seen all around us rather than merely in distant galaxies. We don't know what this energy is, but it seems to have some sort of repulsive effect (I'm repulsed just thinking about it -- hardeharhar).

    Then we have the general observation that contrary to what was generally theorized, at the temperature of 0 Kelvin, atoms do not come to rest, but still jump around and as such still contain energy, but not the gravitational effects normally associated with energy.

    Then we have Tesla's notion that there is an "ether" of energy that permeates everything. Rather like the ancient Greek philosophers theorized.

    Could somebody with knowledge about physics explain to me in laymen's terms why these three observations/theories are probably unrelated? Is it merely the matter of anti-gravitational effects being seen with regard to dark energy, but not with regard to zero point energy, and who-knows-what impact on gravity of Tesla's energy ether?



    Mysterious effect detected in galactic back yard

    March 16, 2005 | 8:45 p.m. ET

    Dark energy is near: For years, scientists have known that we don't know all that much about the universe. In fact, ordinary matter — the kind we can detect with telescopes and other observational tools — accounts for only about 5 percent of the universe's content. About 25 percent consists of "dark matter," which can be sensed only by its gravitational effect. The other 70 percent is tied up in "dark energy," a mysterious quality that is apparently speeding up the expansion of the universe.

    Astronomers first picked up on dark energy's influence on the edges of the observable universe, but now they have found evidence closer to home, in the relative motions of the galaxies around our own. The research indicates that dark energy isn't just a way-out-there quirk, but is truly a property that permeates all of space, including our own galactic neighborhood.

    "It's like traveling from Seattle to Portland, Ore., rather than from Seattle to New York, to measure the earth's curvature," said Fabio Governato, a professor at the University of Washington and a researcher at Italy's National Institute of Astrophysics.

    Governato and his co-authors — the University of Zurich's Andrea Maccio and Cathy Horeliou at Sweden's Chalmers University of Technology — report their results in a paper to be published by the Monthly Notices of the Royal Astronomical Society (PDF file).

    To look for dark energy's signature, the team ran a series of supercomputer simulations of the universe's evolution, varying the parameters to reflect situations with and without dark energy.

    "The computer crunches models for a few weeks, and then we compare the properties of our virtual universe with those of the real ones," Governato told me today.

    The researchers looked at the actual motions of the Local Group galaxies with respect to each other — a complex pattern that is influenced by the mutual gravitational attraction between the galaxies as well as the repulsion caused by the expansion of the universe. They found that the only way to explain the galaxies' motions with their computer model was by including an extra factor for cosmic expansion.

    "If you leave out the dark energy, you miss the data by a factor of three or four," Governato said. "But if you include the dark energy, there’s a match."

    So what is dark energy? That's the 64,000-quatloo question — and one that researchers cannot yet answer. Some theorists say dark energy is simply an unchanging property of the universe, the so-called cosmological constant that Albert Einstein proposed, then rejected. Others say it may be "quintessence," a form of energy that changes over time.

    If we had more precise data about the motions of galaxies, could Governato's model make more headway on such questions?

    "In theory, yes," he said. "We could see how this 'flow' of galaxies is related to the properties of dark energy. ... The more accurate we are with this measure, the more precise we can be with our models."

    Check out the University of Washington's news release about the research, as well as Science magazine's report on the dark side of the universe.
    Last edited by DanS; March 17, 2005, 13:34.
    I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

  • #2
    Anyone? Bueller?
    I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

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    • #3
      Love this subject - thanks for the links.

      I don't see it being terribly useful on planets, but orbital possibilies are quite staggering...
      Some cry `Allah O Akbar` in the street. And some carry Allah in their heart.
      "The CIA does nothing, says nothing, allows nothing, unless its own interests are served. They are the biggest assembly of liars and theives this country ever put under one roof and they are an abomination" Deputy COS (Intel) US Army 1981-84

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      • #4

        Could somebody with knowledge about physics explain to me in laymen's terms why these three observations/theories are probably unrelated?
        The zero energy thing I had explained to me in laymans terms - take a volume of space, and empty it of all material.

        There will be a low level of energy output from it.

        This energy is produced when a particle of matter pops into existence spontaneously. However, there is just as much chance as a particle of anti-matter spontaneously arriving in the same spot - the particles collide and disappear, leaving behind the zero state energy.

        Dark Energy is again speculative and theoretical - imagine a force like gravity which instead of attracting, actually repels massive objects.

        Dark matter is probably the most solid of the lot - physicists spent a long time deciding on the approximate mass of the universe and couldn't find nearly enough by direct observation.

        So they just decided "it must be there - we just can't see it".

        Hope this lot helps.
        Some cry `Allah O Akbar` in the street. And some carry Allah in their heart.
        "The CIA does nothing, says nothing, allows nothing, unless its own interests are served. They are the biggest assembly of liars and theives this country ever put under one roof and they are an abomination" Deputy COS (Intel) US Army 1981-84

        Comment


        • #5
          *Pops back into Apolyton roughly 4 or 5 years after he last posted*

          First of all, gravity is really differenty from the other fundamental forces; In General Relativity, it is caused by the curvature of spacetime being warped by the presence of matter. (For instance, the acceleration due to gravity on earth is mostly because of time dialation rather than an actual force.) Thus, it cannot have a real potential energy function. However, it is theorized that like electromagnetism, there can be a form of radiation caused by the flucutation of the spacetime fabric. Still, gravity is the weakest fundamental force, and thus it's very hard to even remotely observe this time of radiation (Actuall, it would be a form of length contration and such rather than radiation like light.)

          The idea of the rest energy (Don't confuse this with the energy from the rest mass; I mean the energy when the temperature is at absolute zero) was theorized, rather easily using quantum mechanics. But I'm not getting to the point.

          The modern version of the "ether" is ironically, the vacuum itself. Quantum field theory is based on the fact that particles can be created from vacuum flucuations (And it is these particles, called virtual particles because they cannot be observed by definition, that cause the forces) The vacuum energy does exist, but still - the point is that even when you include all of the normal mass of the universe and its energies, it only accounts for 5% of the total mass/enegy of the universe. The vacuum energy is actually very small (Believe it or not, 10^-120 smaller than originally predicted) so it cannot account for dark matter and dark energy.
          "Compromises are not always good things. If one guy wants to drill a five-inch hole in the bottom of your life boat, and the other person doesn't, a compromise of a two-inch hole is still stupid." - chegitz guevara
          "Bill3000: The United Demesos? Boy, I was young and stupid back then.
          Jasonian22: Bill, you are STILL young and stupid."

          "is it normal to imaginne dartrh vader and myself in a tjhreee way with some hot chick? i'ts always been my fantasy" - Dis

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          • #6
            Jeezus! Bill3000? Well that was unexpected!
            “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
            - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

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            • #7
              Wow... I remember being a n00b and him posting....
              urgh.NSFW

              Comment


              • #8
                Eh. I've been lurking once in a while, though more often now. This thread was irresistable for me to post in.
                "Compromises are not always good things. If one guy wants to drill a five-inch hole in the bottom of your life boat, and the other person doesn't, a compromise of a two-inch hole is still stupid." - chegitz guevara
                "Bill3000: The United Demesos? Boy, I was young and stupid back then.
                Jasonian22: Bill, you are STILL young and stupid."

                "is it normal to imaginne dartrh vader and myself in a tjhreee way with some hot chick? i'ts always been my fantasy" - Dis

                Comment


                • #9
                  Hey Bill. Sure been a while. Welcome back! Hopefully, your beard is a little grayer.

                  I understand your post only slightly, but I'm trying to get all I can out of it.

                  The modern version of the "ether" is ironically, the vacuum itself. Quantum field theory is based on the fact that particles can be created from vacuum flucuations (And it is these particles, called virtual particles because they cannot be observed by definition, that cause the forces) The vacuum energy does exist, but still - the point is that even when you include all of the normal mass of the universe and its energies, it only accounts for 5% of the total mass/enegy of the universe. The vacuum energy is actually very small (Believe it or not, 10^-120 smaller than originally predicted) so it cannot account for dark matter and dark energy.
                  OK, so if I'm understanding this correctly, we may have two "ethers", one being dark energy and the other being vacuum energy? Or is it unwarranted to ascribe a possibility to something for which we know little to nothing about (e.g., we don't know enough about dark energy to assume that it is uniform across space)?
                  I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Then we have the general observation that contrary to what was generally theorized, at the temperature of 0 Kelvin, atoms do not come to rest


                    That's a general theory?

                    I've never heard that theorised in quantum theory, which predicts that nothing is ever at rest.
                    One day Canada will rule the world, and then we'll all be sorry.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I don't think that ZPE and "dark energy" have anything in common.
                      urgh.NSFW

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I should have said generally theorized in classical physics.

                        I don't think that ZPE and "dark energy" have anything in common.
                        Thanks for your contribution.
                        I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by DanS
                          Hey Bill. Sure been a while. Welcome back! Hopefully, your beard is a little grayer.

                          I understand your post only slightly, but I'm trying to get all I can out of it.


                          OK, so if I'm understanding this correctly, we may have two "ethers", one being dark energy and the other being vacuum energy? Or is it unwarranted to ascribe a possibility to something for which we know little to nothing about (e.g., we don't know enough about dark energy to assume that it is uniform across space)?
                          About the vacuum energy, yes. However, dark energy we simply don't understand at all. It doesn't even have to be a type of energy but rathyer be a way that gravity acts on a very large scale. For instance in M-theory, gravity is hypothosized to actually be as strong as electromagnetism. However, we would live in more than 3+1 dimensions. (10+1 to be precise) The universe would be located on a brane, basically something akin to the thin layer of solid stuff on a stew. Normal matter/energy (e.g. most of the forces, all of matter, etc) cannot move out of the brane, but gravity can. So, gravity would leak out of the brane and it would seem weak to us. This is an example of how gravity could act differently; actually, there's an article on this possibility to describe dark energy. I should probably post a link to it.
                          "Compromises are not always good things. If one guy wants to drill a five-inch hole in the bottom of your life boat, and the other person doesn't, a compromise of a two-inch hole is still stupid." - chegitz guevara
                          "Bill3000: The United Demesos? Boy, I was young and stupid back then.
                          Jasonian22: Bill, you are STILL young and stupid."

                          "is it normal to imaginne dartrh vader and myself in a tjhreee way with some hot chick? i'ts always been my fantasy" - Dis

                          Comment


                          • #14

                            Thanks for your contribution.


                            You're quite welcome.

                            ZPE is a quantum mechanics phenomenon, and isn't AFAIK quantitatively close to describing the "dark" stuff.

                            But hey, you've got a physicist on board, I am just an undergrad chem student
                            urgh.NSFW

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Azazel

                              Thanks for your contribution.


                              You're quite welcome.

                              ZPE is a quantum mechanics phenomenon, and isn't AFAIK quantitatively close to describing the "dark" stuff.

                              But hey, you've got a physicist on board, I am just an undergrad chem student

                              Who, me? I'm just a freshman undergrad, BME major. Physics just happens to be my passion.
                              "Compromises are not always good things. If one guy wants to drill a five-inch hole in the bottom of your life boat, and the other person doesn't, a compromise of a two-inch hole is still stupid." - chegitz guevara
                              "Bill3000: The United Demesos? Boy, I was young and stupid back then.
                              Jasonian22: Bill, you are STILL young and stupid."

                              "is it normal to imaginne dartrh vader and myself in a tjhreee way with some hot chick? i'ts always been my fantasy" - Dis

                              Comment

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