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Pro-Terrorist Ward Churchill a plagiarist?

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  • #61
    That's not an argument, just another cop out on your part.


    No. It's more of a "Oh God, do I have to explain myself yet again to the person who seems intent on misrepresenting the argument".

    I know you don't think you are doing that, but you are. This is what happens when you don't really understand the issue, Boris.

    In addition, we have to suffer your smarmy sarcasm, but hey - you are a pretty poor player at that game too.

    So let me explain this to you very slowly....

    Churchill is not in trouble for being a plagiarist, he's in trouble for saying politically unpopular things. That should be obvious to anyone with even the most basic knowledge of the case. The problem is that the university, instead of protecting his right to say unpopular things (that old thing called Academic Freedom) has caved to the pressure and has been looking to get rid of him one way or another since this whole thing blew up.

    That is despicable and frightening – and a total dereliction of duty on the part of university officials. It should concern every professor in the United States that academic freedom could be so easily undermined by a political campaign. It also shows up your comment that my fears are "Orwellian". That is of course an exaggeration on your part, but the example of Churchill (who was in deep trouble before the plagiarism thing even arose) shows that a campaign to oust someone because of their political views can come very close to working. Far too close for comfort.

    If it does work, we can be sure it will be tried again, since the chief agitators for Churchill's removal have the stated goal of wanting to remove all those with similar views as "not being fit to teach our children". What makes this even more galling is that what Churchill actually said was basically true, even if expressed in undiplomatic fashion.

    This is the context - the university wants to get rid of him to cover its own ass, despite this being against everything that universities are supposed to stand for.

    So why shouldn't he be fired for plagiarism, even if he is guilty? Because he won't be being fired for plagiarism - he'll be being fired solely for his political stance. That is the reality, which should be obvious to anyone who has looked at the situation. Only a ****** would think that Churchill is being fired for anything other than his political stance.

    You seem to think that it would be somehow righteous to let the university get away with censorship under the guise of enforcing some other rule. Perhaps if, as you say, Churchill was found to be guilty of some heretofore undetected and heinous crime like rape, then the case would stop being about censoring his views and be about this worse crime.

    But it's not. They don't want to fire him for plagiarism, they want to censor him to remove political pressure from themselves. In the grand scheme of things rape is a far worse crime than academic censorship, but as it happens plagiarism is a far lesser crime than a university censoring its own professors.

    Generally, it is immoral to allow one group of people to commit a worse act by appealing to the fact that someone else committed a lesser act. It's also immoral for employers to go on fishing expeditions to justify firing people when they, the employers, are at greater fault.

    Consider the following example. I write for a Toronto newspaper and I publish a scathing expose of the dealings of the local council and assorted local dignitaries. My expose is accurate and true, if impolitely expressed. It creates a stir and there is intense pressure from powerful political lobby groups to have me fired for writing it.

    The editors of the paper decide that they can't handle the pressure and so they cave. But they can't fire me for writing the article, because that's my job. After all, what's the point of having a newspaper if reporters can be fired for writing stories that are unpopular with the powers that be? So they start looking around for any reason they can find to fire me.

    So they find some female employee who accuses me of groping her. This can be a sackable offence, but it depends on a lot of factors as to whether anyone would actually get sacked for it. But that doesn't matter: they now have their "reason" and I get sacked. But we all know that this wasn't the reason - the message gets out across town - expose the local powers that be and you will be out of a job.


    Which is worse: someone gets away with groping someone else, or a newspaper gets away with censoring a reporter to appease local bigwigs, thus depriving the public of honest and accurate reporting? You can't have it both ways.

    This is exactly equivalent to the Churchill case. Your position is to allow the university to get away with an egregious crime because you don't want Ward Churchill to get away with a lesser one - out of pure spite towards the man rather than any commitment to scholarship or any other value.

    That makes you a despicable person.

    Now on to the actual "plagiarism". It isn't clear that Churchill actually did anything wrong. He did not represent the work as his own research (which would have been plagiarism), but he used another's work without permission - even though he indicated in the notes whose work it was. If he indeed printed the thing verbatim or almost verbatim then he should be punished (although again, this is not plagiarism) - although this is still a lesser crime than what the university is doing.

    On the other hand, if he rewrote the article without claiming authorship and acknowledged the original author in the sources it isn't clear that this is wrong. Academics generally speaking do not have the power to prevent others from using their work as long as they are credited with it. If they were, the consequences would be absurd - I could prevent my rivals from attacking my work by not giving them permission to quote it.

    I'm guessing that what happened here is that Churchill really needed to have something representing this work in his book (that's actually a credit to the importance of the author's research) and deadlines were approaching. But the author held out for more money or was being difficult or was trying to gain leverage (this happens all the time with such books) so Churchill gave up and prepared an alternate text as a summary of her view, making sure that she was accurately referenced as the source wherever her work was used. In order to maintain a sense of propriety Churchill refused to present the work as his original research and put himself down as "preparing" the text (which was true).

    It's a slick trick and a bit fast, but it is not necessarily an academic offence. Certainly it is hard to see how the integrity of this woman was impugned by Churchill referencing her work and deeming it important enough to be in his book.
    Only feebs vote.

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    • #62
      Churchill is not in trouble for being a plagiarist, he's in trouble for saying politically unpopular things.
      This completely invalidates your argument. Why? He was found guilty of plagiarism before these comments about the 9/11 victims came out. I do not know what is so hard for you to understand. He stole work. He used it as his own and DID NOT GIVE CREDIT. That is plagiarism. There is no other way around that. You will not twist this.

      If he gets fired it isn't for his political stance. So tell me.. even if his political stance is totally wrong (and it is).. he should be kept because he is academically dishonest? Because if they got rid of him.. it would look like it was for political reasons.. even though he is academically dishonest?

      Some god awful reasoning I would say. Agathon you are full of cop outs, strawmans and logical errors. It is quite frightening that someone could defend a cheating monster like Ward Churchill so strongly.

      Your entire argument is a cop-out.
      For there is [another] kind of violence, slower but just as deadly, destructive as the shot or the bomb in the night. This is the violence of institutions -- indifference, inaction, and decay. This is the violence that afflicts the poor, that poisons relations between men because their skin has different colors. - Bobby Kennedy (Mindless Menance of Violence)

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      • #63
        See how wrong Boris is... Fez has managed to do a better job of arguing than he..

        not much better though....
        Only feebs vote.

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by Agathon
          See how wrong Boris is... Fez has managed to do a better job of arguing than he..

          not much better though....
          Boris is doing a good job. Anyone who opposes you and Ward Churchill is siding with the voice of reason and integrity.

          Not much better? I'm doing a much better job then you have been doing. I do not employ cop-outs in my postings in this thread. I have been direct and trying to tell you that plagiarism is plagiarism. You cannot and will not twist the definition to suit your own political needs...

          You really are a crooked thief..
          For there is [another] kind of violence, slower but just as deadly, destructive as the shot or the bomb in the night. This is the violence of institutions -- indifference, inaction, and decay. This is the violence that afflicts the poor, that poisons relations between men because their skin has different colors. - Bobby Kennedy (Mindless Menance of Violence)

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          • #65
            I have been direct and trying to tell you that plagiarism is plagiarism.


            Oh there's not problem with directness with both of you.

            The problem is that you are directly tilting at windmills.
            Only feebs vote.

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by Agathon
              I have been direct and trying to tell you that plagiarism is plagiarism.


              Oh there's not problem with directness with both of you.

              The problem is that you are directly tilting at windmills.
              WRONG AGAIN!

              You are the one employing cop-outs and logical fallacies by claiming one form of plagiarism is not plagiarism. Plagiarism is plagiarism. You will not try to get your way out of the hole you dug. Just continue digging.. maybe you'll get to North Korea.
              For there is [another] kind of violence, slower but just as deadly, destructive as the shot or the bomb in the night. This is the violence of institutions -- indifference, inaction, and decay. This is the violence that afflicts the poor, that poisons relations between men because their skin has different colors. - Bobby Kennedy (Mindless Menance of Violence)

              Comment


              • #67
                You are the one employing cop-outs and logical fallacies by claiming one form of plagiarism is not plagiarism.


                Given that it's part of my job to detect and punish plagiarism and that I have attended several boring official meetings concerning such cases, I think I'm in a better position than you to determine what is going to count as an academic offence.

                Quoting someone else's work while referencing it is not plagiarism.
                Only feebs vote.

                Comment


                • #68
                  It is part of your job? Oh boy... I bet a lot of people have escaped punishment under your watch. I don't think you are facing the issues.

                  Using someones work as Ward churchill did and claiming it as his own, as he did.. IS PLAGIARISM. HE DID NOT GIVE CREDIT.
                  For there is [another] kind of violence, slower but just as deadly, destructive as the shot or the bomb in the night. This is the violence of institutions -- indifference, inaction, and decay. This is the violence that afflicts the poor, that poisons relations between men because their skin has different colors. - Bobby Kennedy (Mindless Menance of Violence)

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                  • #69
                    HE DID NOT GIVE CREDIT.


                    Um... he did dude. In the references. Why don't you try reading about the case?
                    Only feebs vote.

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                    • #70
                      Ward Churchill is an idiot.

                      I can defend him saying stupid things (seeing as I'm guilty of saying similar stupid things), but I cannot defend plagarism.

                      It saddens me to see people defend this guy.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        I can defend him saying stupid things (seeing as I'm guilty of saying similar stupid things), but I cannot defend plagarism.


                        Get with the program Diss. In the current circumstances you can't have it both ways, since his right to say stupid things is being taken away using plagiarism as an excuse.

                        Either Churchill is fired for his political views using plagiarism as an excuse or he isn't. You can't have it both ways, because it is clear that he is being fired for his political views.

                        The primary evidence for that is that no-one cared about all the other stuff attributed to him until his views became a hot topic.
                        Only feebs vote.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Agathon
                          The primary evidence for that is that no-one cared about all the other stuff attributed to him until his views became a hot topic.
                          No one in the media, obviously. But the charges were filed before his histrionics, and I guess the Academia was wary about it. If he hadn't made his temper tantrum, he would have probably been fired all the same for his plagiarist anti-academic behaviour.
                          "I have been reading up on the universe and have come to the conclusion that the universe is a good thing." -- Dissident
                          "I never had the need to have a boner." -- Dissident
                          "I have never cut off my penis when I was upset over a girl." -- Dis

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                          • #73
                            Since I havent followed this situation except on the periphery it's difficult to really know whats going on. Based on his rebuttal to the charges against him, I'd say that Churchill (I hate using that name in association with this burke) has some valid points with respect to american foreign policy and our attitudes toward it. In addition, what he did does not appear to be classic plagarism. It appears to be totally unethical however and may still serve the purpose of providing 'just cause' to revoke his tenure. Strange as it seems, I agree with Agathon (to some extent).
                            We need seperate human-only games for MP/PBEM that dont include the over-simplifications required to have a good AI
                            If any man be thirsty, let him come unto me and drink. Vampire 7:37
                            Just one old soldiers opinion. E Tenebris Lux. Pax quaeritur bello.

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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Dissident
                              It saddens me to see people defend this guy.
                              Why? His only comment was that Americans are ammoral - all they care about is business when you get to the bottom of it. Reading posts here at Poly you should be quick to see that that's true.
                              Last edited by Kidlicious; March 14, 2005, 13:25.
                              I drank beer. I like beer. I still like beer. ... Do you like beer Senator?
                              - Justice Brett Kavanaugh

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                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Kidicious
                                Why?
                                his annual Columbus Day attempts to deny other citizens their First Amendment rights, belittling the activist left for abandoning armed struggle for various forms of non-violent protest, falsely claiming to be Indian, the various academic sins Boris listed.
                                I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
                                For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator Rubio

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