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Wealthy campaign donors are always making a push. I'm just curious as to why we aren't drilling in ANWR rather than doing a bankruptcy bill. The price of oil just hit $55/bbl, after all.
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I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891 -
Use a bit of common sense. Che printed the numbers in the other thread on this plus someone reprinted the Krugman article which sited a Labor Department study showing something like 80% of people defaulting and going into bankruptcy is caused by job loss, divorce, or someone becoming seriously medically ill. They were in good standing until catostrophic things happened to them.Originally posted by DinoDoc
How much self control does it take to throw those offers away? Deadbeats.
Less then 4% (I'm doing tis from memory and for exact numbers see the other thread) were people charging up cards and never paying them. Of course the credit card companies are claiming the bankruptcy laws have to be virtually eliminated based upon that 4% (many of which are identy thefts not people doing this themselves).
Over the last five years four of them have had record profits for the credit card industry so they are insanely profitable. Yet Republicans still want to remove people's right to have a fresh start. That is just not American.Try http://wordforge.net/index.php for discussion and debate.Comment
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This goes a bit too far...For there is [another] kind of violence, slower but just as deadly, destructive as the shot or the bomb in the night. This is the violence of institutions -- indifference, inaction, and decay. This is the violence that afflicts the poor, that poisons relations between men because their skin has different colors. - Bobby Kennedy (Mindless Menance of Violence)Comment
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That's funny. Losing a job is now a catastrophe? Divorce is a catastrophe? People can and should be required to plan for these dips in the road.
I will give you that serious medical problems are indeed catastrophes.I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891Comment
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But I do have to say that social security is in Bush's court.. not the democrats.. the democrats are just a walking disaster. That's not going to change anytime soon.For there is [another] kind of violence, slower but just as deadly, destructive as the shot or the bomb in the night. This is the violence of institutions -- indifference, inaction, and decay. This is the violence that afflicts the poor, that poisons relations between men because their skin has different colors. - Bobby Kennedy (Mindless Menance of Violence)Comment
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Even businessweek is reporting that Bush's plan to phase out Social Security has horrible poll numbers and is dead in the water.Originally posted by Shi Huangdi
Don't count on it. Being in favor of privitizing SS didn't stop Bush in 2000 and 2004 when that was part of his platform.
Read the March 7th issue for details.Try http://wordforge.net/index.php for discussion and debate.Comment
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Job loss effects can vary from person to person, but divorce often IS just as expensive as a medical crisis. Lawyers fees alone can account for tens of thousands of dollars. How that is a "dip in the road," I don't know...more like a crater.Originally posted by DanS
That's funny. Losing a job is now a catastrophe? Divorce is a catastrophe? People can and should be required to plan for these dips in the road.Tutto nel mondo è burlaComment
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Yeh, but why should society be required to pay for the legal fees of those getting divorced? Fvck that. They can pay their own damn legal fees.I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891Comment
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The problem I have with the Conservative thinking is this:
1998: Strong defense, personal responsibility, small governement, strong moral values
2005: Unilateral belligerent military actions, if you fall on hard times it's your own fault you idiot, let's cut all successful social programs, why don't you act like less of a gay slut you evil unchristian homo bastard???
We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution. - Abraham LincolnComment
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Well, no matter how you look at it, both from left or right, this piece of legislation is stupid. I think it makes perfect sense for both to oppose the legislation, unless special interest ( finance and credit card companies influence ) is involved.Comment
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Homo bastards at least don't foist their legal fees on the rest of us.why don't you act like less of a gay slut you evil unchristian homo bastardI came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891Comment
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"That's funny. Losing a job is now a catastrophe? Divorce is a catastrophe? People can and should be required to plan for these dips in the road.
I will give you that serious medical problems are indeed catastrophes."
It's a good thing you consider medical problems a catastrophe, as that is 50% of bankruptcies.
Losing your job is something by nature that is unexpected, particularly if there is a long span of unemployment, which is far more then a dip along the road.
And as a fellow Catholic, DanS, I really hope you don't consider divorce a dip in the road we shold have to plan for."I'm moving to the Left" - Lancer
"I imagine the neighbors on your right are estatic." - SlowwhandComment
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Bankruptcy isn't a tool to take care of something merely unexpected. The fact is that too many people are living paycheck to paycheck when their financial wherewithal is sufficient for them to plan ahead to weather the storms. We all pay extra because these people don't plan ahead.Losing your job is something by nature that is unexpected, particularly if there is a long span of unemployment, which is far more then a dip along the road.
The reason why I put medical conditions in a separate category is because in many cases it's not something that can be reasonably budgeted in. Few people are going to be able to take a million dollar hit on a decade or two's hard savings.Last edited by DanS; March 10, 2005, 02:51.I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891Comment
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From, CNN, a listing of the Bill's major effects:
The lawyer liability could be the most significant fact here. This could really discourage alot of lawyers from practicing in the field, making filling a bankruptcy much harder.A qualifying test: Currently, it's up to the court to determine if your case qualifies for Chapter 7 bankruptcy.
Under the new bill, your income will be subject to a two-part means test. First, it will be subject to a formula that exempts certain expenses (rent, food, etc.) to determine whether you can afford to pay 25 percent of your "nonpriority unsecured debt" such as your credit card bills. Second, your income will be compared to your state's median income.
You won't be allowed to file for Chapter 7 if your income is above your state's median and you can afford to pay 25 percent of your unsecured debt, said California-based bankruptcy attorney Stephen Elias. But you may be allowed to file for Chapter 13.
If your income is below the state's median but you can pay 25 percent of your unsecured debt, you may be able to file Chapter 7, but the court can still require you to file Chapter 13 instead if it believes that you would be abusing the system by filing for Chapter 7, Elias said.
Under current law, the court has great latitude in deciding whether debtors may file for bankruptcy in consideration of their personal circumstances. Under the bill, there will be few if any exceptions made to the means test, no matter how sympathetic your case, said Leon Bayer, a bankruptcy attorney in Los Angeles.
Determining what you can afford to pay: Currently, if you file for Chapter 13 today, the court determines what you can afford to pay based on what you and the court deem to be reasonable and necessary expenses.
Under the bill, the court would apply living standards derived by the IRS to determine what is reasonable to pay for rent, food and other expenses to figure out how much you have available to pay your debts. The IRS regulations are more stringent, and to contest them means asking for a hearing from a judge, which can mean more time and expense, Elias said.
Creditors' recourse: Currently, creditors who won't receive any money owed in a bankruptcy case may contest the ruling if it's a Chapter 7 case, but not if it's a filing under Chapter 13.
Under the new bill, that right to contest is extended to creditors in Chapter 13 filings.
Lawyer liability: Under the new bill, if information about a client's case is found to be inaccurate, the bankruptcy attorney may be subject to various fees and fines.
What that means for consumers is it will be harder to find a bankruptcy attorney willing to file because of the liability and the additional work required to verify a client's information, Elias said.
Those who are willing are likely to charge more. Right now, for routine cases, it can cost between $500 and $1,000 to file, Elias noted. He expects the minimum may go up to $1,000 if the bill becomes law.
Credit counseling and money management: Under the new bill you must meet with a credit counselor in the six months prior to applying for bankruptcy. And before debts are discharged, you must attend money management classes.
What should you do?
For those people who have considered bankruptcy, the time to act may be now, consumer advocates say.
Talk to a good bankruptcy lawyer, Plunkett said. If together you decide bankruptcy is the right call, you might consider speeding up your plans to file. If the bill is passed into law, its main provision won't go into effect until six months after passage, Plunkett said.
Typically, it can take a couple of weeks to file for bankruptcy, said Bayer, who expects a lot of people will file before the new provisions go into effect."I'm moving to the Left" - Lancer
"I imagine the neighbors on your right are estatic." - SlowwhandComment
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Bankruptcy isn't a tool to take care of something merely unexpected. The fact is that too many people are living paycheck to paycheck when their financial wherewithal is sufficient for them to plan ahead to weather the storms. We all pay extra because these people don't plan ahead.
DanS want to kill American consumer spending
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