Rugby - Running Out Of Titles (cont'd)

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Markos archived our thread. Despite me posting a link in his thread asking for links to threads that shouldn't be archived. No wonder the Greeks are ranked 8965th in the world in rugby.

Here's a link to the archived thread: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...89#post3646789

It was last posted in yesterday (Sunday). We can continue it here!

[LDiCesare]

I saw the Rougerie try again and I can't see what you're talking about. Betsen passed and the ball was in Jauzion's hands, and he was about to pass the ball, when the welsh to his interior fell. So even if Betsen tripped him, he was too late to do anything?
Wgile we're at questionning tries, I thought you had to be on your feet to score a try, not to crawl, which is what the wlesh player did?

As for Ireland-England: The English scored a try by Corry thanks to a big defensive error by the Irish. But then that was the only defensive error by the Celts. The Greens played a much better rugby in my opinion, even though the score was close. The English systematically ran their wingers straight into their opponents. The English wingers never thought of using their feet for instance, and Robinson doesn't manage to unsettle the defenses any more. Compare that to Hickie, Murphy and O'Driscoll for the Irish try... A very strong defense by the Irish. The real question now is what will they do against the Welsh, in Wales?
It's a pity we didn't see the placement of Cueto on the refused try, but I'll trust the referees on this one. Robinson apparently doesn't, and said so. I love these coaches who find nothing more clever in order to explain a defeat than say it's the fault of the referee.

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Originally posted by LDiCesare
I saw the Rougerie try again and I can't see what you're talking about. Betsen passed and the ball was in Jauzion's hands, and he was about to pass the ball, when the welsh to his interior fell. So even if Betsen tripped him, he was too late to do anything?

I'll look at it again.

Wgile we're at questionning tries, I thought you had to be on your feet to score a try, not to crawl, which is what the wlesh player did?

I'll have another look at that one too.

As for Ireland-England: The English scored a try by Corry thanks to a big defensive error by the Irish.

Yes, Ireland were negligent behind the breakdown, but Grewcock hanging onto O'Gara off the ball made the try questionable anyway, IMHO. There was a lot of activity off the ball that went unnoticed by the officials. Some of it amazingly so. Cueto taking out Murphy with a high swinging arm as Murphy moved up to support O'Driscoll's charge (at around the 30 minute mark) was extraordinary. Presumably Havak's heart was in his mouth as he saw his (club) fullback poleaxed off the ball.

But then that was the only defensive error by the Celts. The Greens played a much better rugby in my opinion, even though the score was close. The English systematically ran their wingers straight into their opponents. The English wingers never thought of using their feet for instance, and Robinson doesn't manage to unsettle the defenses any more. Compare that to Hickie, Murphy and O'Driscoll for the Irish try... A very strong defense by the Irish. The real question now is what will they do against the Welsh, in Wales?
It's a pity we didn't see the placement of Cueto on the refused try, but I'll trust the referees on this one. Robinson apparently doesn't, and said so. I love these coaches who find nothing more clever in order to explain a defeat than say it's the fault of the referee.

I haven't seen the Irish before in this year's comp - apart from highlights packages - but I expected more from them. While their defence was outstanding, they seemed to sputter along, and not always the result of England pressure. Yet they always looked more dangerous in attack. Even with England's huge possession rate in the second half, their attack was predictable, either drifting sideways or running headlong into the defence. Where were the runners to change the angles? I don't know who the England backs' coach is, but there's a distinct lack of imagination. It's a pity, because I thought there were good signs for England elsewhere. The young prop did well, the locks exerted pressure, some of Lewsey's work from restarts was amazing, and even young Noon did a couple of nice things. More than Barkley, I thought. And I continue to be impressed by Corry. He's top quality. And he should be captain. Dare I say it, but his courage, commitment and skills could see him become a Junior J****.

But why does coach Robinson bother selecting players on the bench? I could be wrong, but I think he made one replacement - Dawson for Ellis. Where were the fresh legs in the last ten minutes when England were in control? Why not Smith for Barkley, who hadn't done much except kick? I was, yet again, mystified.

It's a pity the hoo-haa about the officials is clouding the result. I thought they were all seriously lacking on a number of counts, and the various tries that have been claimed as against dubious tries awarded, as against blatant off-the-ball fouls that went unnoticed, probably all cancel each other out. Although I laughed out loud when one of the commentators - I don't know who they were, but I think one of them was called Eddie - opined that Cueto would have been onside because he and the kicker are clubmates and the cross-field kick and gather tactic is second nature to them. The bottom line is that England had the possession in the second half to win the game and couldn't. And they gave away idiotic penalties that handed Ireland 3 points every time. Which has been a pattern of theirs in this year's competition. The England coach would be better off analysing his team's performance - promising in some areas, deficient in others - and getting on and doing something about it.

[Havak]

Ah where to start?

The hoo-ha is quite important. One of Kaplans decisions ranks as the most bizarre I have ever seen – but more on that later.

That commentator is Eddie Butler. A Welshman and also incidentally the ghost writer of certain columns a Mr Healey ‘wrote’ in 2001. Including the infamous Plod piece. I am sure that helps you make an assessment of the worth of his comments?

Okay it was a slightly better performance – but still very poor indeed. It’s rugby by the numbers with no real clue how to break down a defence. An 18 year record has now been set for the worst start to the Championship.

And I am afraid LDiCesare is being rather generous to the Irish who were also extremely poor. To be honest only Wales impressed this weekend – but France did rather self destruct in the second half.

It’s easy to pick on our coach for his now traditional Ostrich act (“we are being killed by small things”) and I will later but you know, for once, he does have a small point because Kaplan had an absolute howler. I couldn’t tell at the time but Cueto proved to be well on side in the post match analysis – Kaplan failed to use the TMO when he should have. But that was the better of the two disallowed tries – the second one he turned down was absolutely bizarre. England mauled over the line with five mins to go. Lewsey put the ball down cleanly. The ref whistled and Josh let the ball go. Stringer picked it up. The South African chump with the whistle then gave an Irish scrum. Someone needs to explain that one to me – it was either a try or held up and a five metre scrum to England – there was no option for a defensive scrum – it was utterly bizarre and again he failed to use the TMO. It smacks of a ref with utter self belief (if no actual talent for the role).

Add that to the knock on and block he missed in the build up to the paddy try and Kaplan is not one’s favourite ref right now!

And yes Finbar there was plenty of off the ball stuff – but it was from both sides not just England. The paddy loose forwards were going for the biff with abandon.

*neatly ignores how a paddy was held back for the Corry try as that seemed natural justice in balance for the missed offences before the BOD try*

Didn’t Hodgson buy a nice dummy from Murphy by the way? How we pray Wilko is fit for the next game or we might lose that too!

It’s a strange Championship – with England, and to a lesser extent France, self destructing the Celtic sides are being made to look far better than they actually are. It makes one fear for the Lions – unless more English players find form NZ will blow away a majority Celtic side. The only Englishmen staking claims right now would be Corry, Kay, Moody, Lewsey and possibly Ellis (oh and Smith if the tosser coach will ever play him).

Okay now I will turn my attention to Andy Robinsons staggering grasp of tactical substitutions. Finbar has already remarked on it. Seven men on the bench. On the field the skipper is looking more a spent force with every game. The hooker quite simply isn’t one. The blindside flanker is AWOL. The inside centre is anonymous (strangely Noon had a fairly good game outside him). So who does the coach sub? Ellis of course. He fixes a problem that didn’t exist – and he fixes it with only ten minutes left. How many more subs did he use? None. Six men shined the bench for the duration. Instead of trying to change things he sat back and did nothing. Is it me or is this rank stupidity? That is three times in a row that the bench have been spectators.

The sooner this moron is sacked the sooner we can start moving forward.

Tigers coach is furious – we had 14 players missing with national sides – Saints had one (Lardy) and beat us quite handsomely with their SH all star side. And two of our missing players were left on Englands bench for the duration. John Wells is not a happy man – Robinson is not on his Xmas card list this morning!

[LDiCesare]

Notice I dodn't say the Irish played well. They defended well, and when they managed to get the ball to Murphy or Hickie, they knew what to do with it. The English backs had more balls to play with and failed. The ref wasn't good, for sure. I also think that, in the maul that crossed the line, an Englishman scored, but couldn't see it well enough to be sure. But again, the tackle of O'Gara to let Corry score balances it.
The Welsh were impressive but I more and more believe that they rely on Shane Williams to win all their games. Take this player out and they'd lose. It's really amazing that a winger (!) manages to consistently make the difference in all thier matches.

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Originally posted by Havak
That commentator is Eddie Butler. A Welshman and also incidentally the ghost writer of certain columns a Mr Healey ‘wrote’ in 2001. Including the infamous Plod piece. I am sure that helps you make an assessment of the worth of his comments?

So Eddie Butler is a Sky commentator? Who's his co-commentator?

Someone needs to explain that one to me – it was either a try or held up and a five metre scrum to England – there was no option for a defensive scrum – it was utterly bizarre and again he failed to use the TMO. It smacks of a ref with utter self belief (if no actual talent for the role).

Did you actually see Lewsey ground the ball? I couldn't in the mass of players. He says he did, but that's to be expected. I would have liked more camera angles on the incident. The only way a defensive scrum could have been paid, I think, is if the ball hadn't been taken over the line in the first place and ended up in Irish hands.

And yes Finbar there was plenty of off the ball stuff – but it was from both sides not just England. The paddy loose forwards were going for the biff with abandon.

Oh, I wasn't saying England were the sole offenders. Just that Cueto's shocker on your club fullback was the most spectacular. And visible! It's beyond me how it was missed. It's beyond me how it hasn't been visited by the citing official.

*neatly ignores how a paddy was held back for the Corry try as that seemed natural justice in balance for the missed offences before the BOD try*

My point exactly. Everything evened out. That said, Kaplan has produced some astonishing, quite bewildering efforts in S12, too. I once had a theory that he panics in the heat of a moment.

It’s a strange Championship – with England, and to a lesser extent France, self destructing the Celtic sides are being made to look far better than they actually are. It makes one fear for the Lions – unless more English players find form NZ will blow away a majority Celtic side. The only Englishmen staking claims right now would be Corry, Kay, Moody, Lewsey and possibly Ellis (oh and Smith if the tosser coach will ever play him).

I think the Welsh are bona fide improvers. They showed stuff on the weekend that I didn't think they had, and I don't think it was entirely French self-destruction. But for all that, you're right. It's a worry when they - and Ireland, who disappointed me - are leading the way. It's as if NH rugby has gone off the boil all of a sudden. Well, not all of a sudden, because England were on the skids last year, and the idiot incumbent coach is now contributing to the problem.

Okay now I will turn my attention to Andy Robinsons staggering grasp of tactical substitutions. Finbar has already remarked on it. Seven men on the bench. On the field the skipper is looking more a spent force with every game. The hooker quite simply isn’t one. The blindside flanker is AWOL. The inside centre is anonymous (strangely Noon had a fairly good game outside him). So who does the coach sub? Ellis of course. He fixes a problem that didn’t exist – and he fixes it with only ten minutes left. How many more subs did he use? None. Six men shined the bench for the duration. Instead of trying to change things he sat back and did nothing. Is it me or is this rank stupidity? That is three times in a row that the bench have been spectators.

Has he been asked why he hasn't used the bench? I nearly fell out of bed last night when he repeated the Ellis-Dawson switch. What was Ellis doing wrong? What did Dawson bring to the game? The two biggest threats to England were always O'Driscoll and Horgen and, as you say, Barkley was invisible. I've never seen a coach so unwilling to use the bench. In close games, most coaches raid their benches for fresh legs.

The sooner this moron is sacked the sooner we can start moving forward.

One of the reasons why I said it's a pity the hoo-haa about the ref is clouding the result. Robinson is blaming the ref for losing. Two weeks ago, it was the kicking. He has smoke screens to erect. Scotland and Italy are inept, so you will beat them. Hopefully two wins for the competition won't convince the powers that he's the man for the job.

Tigers coach is furious – we had 14 players missing with national sides – Saints had one (Lardy) and beat us quite handsomely with their SH all star side. And two of our missing players were left on Englands bench for the duration. John Wells is not a happy man – Robinson is not on his Xmas card list this morning!

Mr Wells has extra grounds to be p*ssed off. If Lardy had been playing for Saints, you would have won the match on his lineout throwing alone.

[Havak]

The Greens played a much better rugby in my opinion

That was the source of my misunderstanding I think.

Personally I think they played slightly better than England - but not much. The ref was certainly the game breaker for them.

[LDiCesare]

Well, the Irish played "better", not well.
Their backs attacked better than the English, they defended very well. The English managed to occupy the opponent's half but couldn't do anything clever with it (except for one kick leding to a refused try). I think rugby begins with a strong defense, and Ireland showed plenty of that.
But I agree the match was somewhat disappointing. I didn't expect Horgan to play well, he's no D'Arcy, but the Irish could have been more dangerous. The English had no idea how to go beyond the line. They definietly miss a fly half who is able to make a difference.

[Havak]

It's all in the translation.

Eddie Butler is the BBC play by play commentator and Brian Moore (former English hooker and hated by all of NZ for black shirt jokes) is the colour commentator. Eddie made that comment about the cross-field kick as I remember smiling at how daft it was – so you must have seen the BBC coverage Finbar?

The only way a defensive scrum could have been paid, I think, is if the ball hadn't been taken over the line in the first place and ended up in Irish hands.

I never saw the grounding. I don’t necessarily take Lewsey’s word either. After all BOD thought his try was legitimate too so you can’t trust players. But the ball sure went over the line whilst held aloft by someone so there simply is not any way it could have been an Irish put in – it’s not possible unless a knock on occured before the line and there is no way Kaplan could have seen that with a ball tucked in the maul. It’s a bizarre call – especially if he is saying it was pushed forward as it was put down as I simply don’t believe he could have seen that.

It's beyond me how it hasn't been visited by the citing official.

I am a little surprised about that – Cueto is a hot head at times with a nasty streak. Similarly late on half the Irish pack pounded on Corry about twenty metres away from the ball and it went on for half a minute whilst play continued!

Geordan is a tough kid however and I’m pleased for him that his Lions chances look excellent. He beats Robinson hands down as a fullback.

I once had a theory that he panics in the heat of a moment.

I have to say I didn’t understand some of the penalties given (and not given) at rucks. And it is clear he will not allow any use of the boot whatsoever – so rucking is a dead art where Mr Kaplan officiates.

But he isn’t the source of the problem – the ref has no bearing on a coach with rose tinted contact lenses that filter out the bad and only leave the (fantasy) good.

Well, not all of a sudden, because England were on the skids last year, and the idiot incumbent coach is now contributing to the problem.

Strange isn’t it? As for the coach no one will take my bet today that he will be gone by the end of the year. To be honest he should have resigned this morning – but I have a horrid feeling the RFU will let him run until the autumn – when huge losses to Australia and NZ will seal his fate and give his poor successor 18 months to try to build a competitive side.

I don’t get it because individually most of the players are still extremely talented – it has to be the coaching?

Has he been asked why he hasn't used the bench?

I’ve been waiting for someone to do so – but the only place I have seen it asked is on forums. Oh there is a growing clamour for his resignation on those as well.

I've never seen a coach so unwilling to use the bench. In close games, most coaches raid their benches for fresh legs.

It is the one thing that stands out as making him totally clueless. You cannot hide from not using your bench when chasing the game – it beggars belief.

Hopefully two wins for the competition won't convince the powers that he's the man for the job.

This is my biggest fear to be honest. If both sides give us space we will beat them solidly – and that will just lead to false optimism about the autumn. I still say the coach will be gone by Xmas (I’d prefer he was gone by March!).

Mr Wells has extra grounds to be p*ssed off. If Lardy had been playing for Saints, you would have won the match on his lineout throwing alone.

Their line out functioned really well with the understudy. And sealed my perfect weekend of rugby!

I think LDiCesare said it all – England don’t just miss Wilko for the boot but for his play making too.

[Caligastia]

Sorry to leave you guys high and dry...I'm typing this without looking at any of the posts because I don't want to learn the result of Brumbies v Crusaders. I'll create a new thread tomorrow...any suggestions for a thread title?

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

"Lick the altar of Thalidomide Satan".

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Originally posted by Havak
Eddie Butler is the BBC play by play commentator and Brian Moore (former English hooker and hated by all of NZ for black shirt jokes) is the colour commentator. Eddie made that comment about the cross-field kick as I remember smiling at how daft it was – so you must have seen the BBC coverage Finbar?

I watch on Fox Sports. That's why I thought it was Sky coverage. Obviously Fox Sports takes the BBC coverage. I've heard some of the Black Shirt jokes. I like them. They wouldn't be out of place in this forum! OTOH, commentators are probably not to meant to indulge themselves the way we do.

It’s a bizarre call – especially if he is saying it was pushed forward as it was put down as I simply don’t believe he could have seen that.

As I say, Kaplan is famous in S12 for baffling decisions. And it's not restricted to S12. In one of the Wallaby games last season, the oppo were commiting professional foul after professional foul defending their line. He awarded a penalty to the Wallabies but reversed it when Gregan pointed out - politely and reasonably - the consistency of the professional fouls. It hadn't been one of George's vocal matches either. Kaplan overreacted. He seems like an imperious sort of character and his decisions not to go to the TMO on Sunday fit the character. He thinks he's right.

Geordan is a tough kid however and I’m pleased for him that his Lions chances look excellent. He beats Robinson hands down as a fullback.

Well, Murphy's a fullback in the classic mould with all the options at his disposal. A delight to watch. I haven't seen a fullback who would threaten his Lions chances. Robinson's a winger playing out of position with only one real option - his running. What's more, oppo defences now seem to have well and truly worked him out, so his jinking, attacking runs are being snuffed out, killing off the attack with a breakdown. It's time England returned him to the wing - where he can use his speed and evasion freely - and brought in a bona fide fullback with options at his disposal.

I have to say I didn’t understand some of the penalties given (and not given) at rucks. And it is clear he will not allow any use of the boot whatsoever – so rucking is a dead art where Mr Kaplan officiates.

The camera revealed that he got quite a few wrong for and against both sides. There were often hands in the ruck (on the opposite side from where he was) that went unpenalised and I couldn't see some of the transgressions that he penalised. Which isn't to say they weren't there. There also didn't seem to be much communication between him and his touchies.

But one thing that's abundantly clear is that, this season, the refs are under orders to require instantaneous action at the breakdown. It was evident in all the 6 Nations games on the weekend as well as all the S12 games. And I watched them all! The tackler has to roll away in a flash, and the tackled player has to release in a flash. Yet another IRB directive. Meanwhile, seven out of ten lineout throws remain crooked and are ignored. Same old problem. One aspect of the laws is flavour of the season.

I don’t get it because individually most of the players are still extremely talented – it has to be the coaching?

I think it's a case of ignorant coaching compounding a talent problem. Or an available talent problem, anyway, and I don't just mean injuries. More than once, you've nailed the players who aren't up to it. I think you've got a small nucleus of quality players - Corry, Lewsey, Moody (who needs to do more), Kay (ditto) and, historically anyway, Robinson if he goes back to the wing. Of the rest, some aren't up to it, and I suspect the others, solid rather than quality, either need more quality players around them to lift them, or a coach (and captain) capable of extracting every ounce of their abilities. That, I think, was one of the keys to the success of the Clive/J**** nexus. Of course, you also have the nightmare from hell at the moment - a coach with apparently no grasp of tactics, and no leader/tactician/playmaker on the field. Wilkinson's return (if he can wear the pressure) will help to address that problem. But while the coach is compounding rather than alleviating problems ...

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Originally posted by Caligastia
Sorry to leave you guys high and dry...I'm typing this without looking at any of the posts because I don't want to learn the result of Brumbies v Crusaders. I'll create a new thread tomorrow...any suggestions for a thread title?

Rugby - Free English Lessons For Tamerlin!

I sent him a VHS of the BBC's TV series History of Rugby!

Or, on a less frivolous note:

Rugby - Return Of The Celts!

Or:

Rugby - Swing Even Lower Sweet Chariot!

Or:

Rugby - Lions Or Puddy Tats?

[Havak]

I don’t like any of those!

How about Rugbynator – we’ll be back!

OTOH, commentators are probably not to meant to indulge themselves the way we do.

I think when you get an ex-England player commentating a little bias is understandable if not really the way it should be. It could be worse – the co-commentator for the Scotland game (Brian Redpath I believe – ex Scottish skipper) referred to Scotland as ‘we’ and ‘us’ throughout the game with Italy.

I have to say I find the way the two BBC commentators interact very amusing at times – with Butler frequently trying to smooth over the ruffles Moore creates with things like the shirt jokes. It’s not totally dissimilar to the way the two handed commentary teams work in S12 of course – “Jeez this game is so dour I thought I was in the NH”.

It hadn't been one of George's vocal matches either. Kaplan overreacted

I remember this! I think I was a little harsh on George at the time in the threads but it was strange to see a skipper instantly punished for approaching a ref.

I think it is clear that Kaplan is eccentric at best – but the news this morning is that England are lodging a formal complaint with the IRB. I really don’t see the point of this to be honest – the game is gone and the IRB will close ranks to protect it’s employee. It just smacks of sour grapes too much and shows that the coaching teams focus is on the wrong things still (they have spent two days analysing the controversial decisions apparently). Yet more evidence, were it needed, that our head coach is in total denial.

It's time England returned him to the wing - where he can use his speed and evasion freely - and brought in a bona fide fullback with options at his disposal.

Yes I think if Jason has an England future it is back on the wing. He does seem to have been thoroughly worked out by world plus dog right now. Strangely Lewsey is a more conventional fullback (and that’s is where he spends much of his club time). There is also Balshaw who is much more conventional but probably the best option for short term solidity is Matt Perry. Matt was the Lions fullback in 2001 but was subsequently dumped by SCW perhaps because he was too conventional – but he never let England or the Lions down.

The only threat to Murphy I would say is the Welsh skipper Mr Thomas – Murphy is the better player but Thomas is the more physical presence so it depends how they plan to play it in NZ. I suspect the Lions are likely to rough NZ up a bit as that tends to work against Henry’s sides.

One aspect of the laws is flavour of the season.

At least ‘through the gate’ has stopped being called every five seconds this season.

But while the coach is compounding rather than alleviating problems ...

Moody is stills several games off full match fitness I think – I am sure his game will get back to where it needs to be. Kay is steadily improving this season and he has a chance of a Lions berth. I’d also add Julian White to the list of very good players – and I hate to say it but we are really missing bang-bang Tindall too! I’d love to see a Tindall-Smith combination at some point.

Lewsey perhaps should make the list – he cannot be faulted for commitment (though I realise that perhaps does not make a great player).

I’m tempted to list again the players I think need to put aside – but instead I’ll be positive and add to your nucleus of quality players with those I think hold great potential: Ellis, Smith, Forester, Chuter/Titterall, Brown/Deacon, Cueto. I was also quite impressed with Matt Stevens for a 22 year old.

I can also delve into the U21 and U19 sides to find lads with huge potential – the young Tigers wing Tom Varndell scored two tries in the U21 win over Ireland at Donnybrook for example – and there are just as talented lads from other clubs.

Of course no one has seen these lads because the coach keeps picking the same players for the first XV – and you aren’t even seeing the other players he picks in the 22!

Yet more good news for England – Rob Andrew says he doesn’t want England to pick Wilko at all in the 6N. Rob plans to play him in a club game the day after England-Italy. Um, Rob, if the boy is fit England will whip him away I’m afraid. It is still possible though that Wilko will run out in the first test in NZ having played just 200 mins or so of rugby since the RWC final. I will almost guarantee that Clive will play him over O’Gara or Jones – and at his best he is in a different league to those boys for sure. But how do we know how good Jonny is now?

[Havak]

As I was saying about our coaches focus. Okay we maybe suffered from some dodgy decisions but to suggest that only one side was refereed? What on earth is he thinking?

England will protest to the International Rugby Board (IRB) about the referee's performance in the defeat by Ireland, reports the Daily Mail.
England coach Andy Robinson has called on ex-international referees Colin High and Steve Lander to analyse several of Jonathan Kaplan's decisions.

"I want to go through the tape with Colin and Steve," Robinson told the Daily Mail.

"I want to speak to the IRB about it. I think only one side was refereed."

High, the Rugby Football Union's referees' manager, claimed Kaplan made three major errors which changed the outcome of Sunday's match.

England were beaten 19-13 by the Irish in Dublin, their third straight defeat in the 2005 Six Nations.

"The International Rugby Board will be disappointed," High told the Daily Mail.

"Jonathan Kaplan is in the top 20 in the world but that wasn't an international performance.

"It would not have been acceptable in the Zurich Premiership.

"If one of my referees had done that, I would have had my backside kicked for making the appointment.

"If any English referee refereed like that in a European match, there would be an inquest. No question about that.

"If someone had performed like that, he would have been pulled from the next game."